From: Rapunzel 10/03/00 22:07:08 Subject: Not really science but... post id: 45678 Hi all I've just decided to teach a solid bracket of sex education to my Year 10s because after hearing what they have to say, I think they need it. In the process of such a topic there is, of course, a fair amount of nervousness, boisterousness etc amongst the students, and the inevitable jokes. That's all fine, except that I have, for the first time in my teaching career, run into a vocally homophobic subset of students. They appear to get off on telling jokes about homosexuals and rubbishing them far and wide. My initial response to them was "not funny" but I'm now racking my brains to come up with something that can improve the situation. I can easily suppress the symptoms - I could just apply the usual consequences to this behaviour as I do to any other unacceptable behaviour. However, I have the feeling that this by itself would just encourage them to see themselves as martyrs for their cause. So managing their behaviour is one thing, but it's not enough. I'd actually like to address the underlying attitudes. I may be unduly optimistic here. I've got a couple of ideas I want to try out, but if anyone has any suggestions for me, please let me hear them. If they were older and brighter, I could show them "Blue-Eyed" - but I think that would go straight over their heads. Plus, I'm a bit limited timewise because I still have to teach them science! Rapunzel From: Mjr 10/03/00 22:15:43 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45679 Hi Rapunzel... Just a thought... Find out some of their heroes... sporting, movie, past, present, whatever... and if you can find some of them who are gay, then you might be able to change their minds??? Mjr (NUFAH) From: Jacob(NIT) 10/03/00 22:41:17 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45686 Hi Rapunzel Well mate you could take the one that is making all the jokes aside and have a talk with him and let him know that what he is saying is very discouraging for everyone else, and its because of jokes like this that gives homosexuals a bad name, or make them do research for you subject: homosexuality in our present life styles or something like that ..hope this helps you. :??) From: Min-Zhao Lee 10/03/00 22:53:54 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45690 MJR, not meaning to psychoanalyse, but if one found those people that bunch looked up to and showed any homosexual inclinations, the bunch would indeed change their mind. It would be, however, more likely that this means they would pick new role models. There are some theories behind this I can cite: 1. easier to change role model than opinion 2. continuing support of the role model puts them at risk of ridicule by their contemporaries From: Daryn Voss (Avatar) 10/03/00 22:57:06 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45691 Yes, I think a quick history of gaiety, from Alexander the Great to George Michaels, would be a start. BTW, are you giving these people high quality sex ed? When I was in high school, the three weeks of s.e. that were stuck in the middle of our Biology classes were quite sad and lame. I really don't think there was anyone in the class who knew less than the teacher appeared to know. Over course, that was some time ago... From: Dr. Ed G (Avatar) 11/03/00 0:10:05 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45699 You could point out that often the most vocal opponents of something are its greatest hypocrites. For example you couldn't get more vocal opponents of sexual promiscuity than certain American TV evangelists who were subsequently found out to be "doing it" all over the shop with anyone that was up for it. You could question the motives for these attacks on homosexuality, and suggest the only rational explanation could be the urge to distance ones self it as a result of fear of hidden or latent homosexual feelings in the individual concerned. People who are confident about their sexuality have no reason or need to attack the sexuality of others. Indeed, this is probably the crux of the problem - teenagers are perhaps the least confident individuals in society, so getting them to not attack an easy target (given the continuing prejudice in society) will be extremely difficult. I can remember myself holding the most staunch and ridiculous prejudices for most of my time at school - probably exacerbated by the fact that since I was quite bright in the eyes of the rest of the school I must have been a poofter ("no heterosexual could possibly be so studious?!?") Good luck (you'll need it!) Soupie twist, Ed G. From: Lib 11/03/00 0:29:11 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45701 I'd go for Dr Ed's approach. My initial response was "me thinks he(they) doth protest too much", by which I suppose I mean that, like Dr Ed said, maybe they have something to hide??!! They probably don't, but are going through a very self conscious phase and have to be seen to be ridiculing pooftas (is that term P.C. these days?), just so everyone else knows they aren't one. If I were in your shoes I'd be turning that tables on them. I'm no psychologist however, and am not sure whether hinting that they might be trying to camouflage their own tendencies with all this bluff and bravado would mess with their heads too much, but it might at least shut them up in class for a while. From: Daryn Voss (Avatar) 11/03/00 0:44:47 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45704 I always think that is a slightly dodgy tactic: "fighting fire with fire." You are basically relying on their homophobia to quell their expression of it. But, what do I know. I guess the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I just know I could never be a teacher. From: Lib 11/03/00 1:01:43 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45706 True, true. It isn't the best solution, but what can you tell teenage boys? I could also never be a teacher, I just wouldn't have the patience. I really would have no idea how to reason with opinionated adolescents. They know it all of course and no one can tell them otherwise, so what do you do? They might grow out of it as they get older and maybe their best friend comes out of the closet, or their brother, or sister. Once they realise that these people are just as normal as everyone else they might come around. I think the one of the biggest homophobic fears in young hetero males (this coming from a 30yo hetero female so take with large grain of salt) might be that a gay man might try and crack onto them.......in front of their mates. To them, this suggests there might be something gay about themselves that made the person single them out. Self-doubt kicks in, the mates make jokes, and the poor boy gets a complex! From: Purple 11/03/00 1:05:03 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45707 Hi Rapunzel Sorry to put a damper on others ideas but I don't think you will change the way they feel. Homophobia starts at home - these kids are brought up with these ideas and attitudes and you aren't going to change that. Through my kids (aged 5-15) I have met lots of different children with many differing belief systems. I've seen homophobia in little children (along with other not nice attitudes like racism). Kids generally believe what their parents believe and I think the best you can hope for is banning this kind of behaviour in your room. You may get through to some of them with the aforementioned suggestions, but the die-hard kids will stick with their parents belief system. Purple From: Dr. Ed G (Avatar) 11/03/00 1:08:31 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45708 Yes, that's a good point... and I'm sure its obvious that it would be counterproductive to single individuals out in the style of a witch hunt. However, it could be approached in a positive rather than negative way, i.e. those who have a confident and healthy understanding of their own sexuality need not attack the sexuality of others. Still, I don't know that the gregarious caring approach always works... for example responding to individuals in a respectful and considerate manner rarely stopped me from getting the stuffing kicked out of me, or having large chunks of pointy metal being bounced off my cranium during class... it wasn't until I started throwing punches back that school stopped being an intimidating terrifying hell of an experience (and as soon as I fought back in kind it completely stopped). I have NO idea, however, how one might translate this into a civilised schooling policy, however (except that if I ever have children I will have to find some explanation of how sometimes violence does work). Soupie twist, Ed G. From: Dr. Ed G (Avatar) 11/03/00 1:24:09 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45711 Sorry to put a damper on others ideas but I don't think you will change the way they feel. Homophobia starts at home - these kids are brought up with these ideas and attitudes and you aren't going to change that. Yes and no, and I don't think that it is a good enough reason not to continue challenging these ideas at an early age. Indeed if this were the case in totality then we would still be stuck in the intellectual quagmire of hundreds of years ago (or of the mind of Johnny Howard). And interestingly enough, I think it wasn't solely the non-predjudicial attitudes of my parents (although this was probably a big influence) that disabused me of the racist, sexist, and homophobic attitudes I had as a teenager (attitudes which certainly didn't come from home), but a combination of this and the influence of some extremely good teachers, and perhaps more significantly life experience. This is, I think, where the greatest good can be done - encourage our kids to embrace and persue a broad range of experience with an open mind and many good things follow, including confidence (which works against prejudice) and understanding (which works against ignorance which works against prejudice). From: steve(primus) 11/03/00 3:00:34 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45713 My first reaction would be to point out that while some of the students may hold these views, the expression of them is unacceptable. Discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, sex, sexuality and age is just not on and should not be tolerated. You could point out that the anti-vilifiation laws back you up on this point. Much of the homophobia and anti-poofta talk is to do with being different and that is a huge crime in the schoolyard. "Poofta" is used as a pejorative from a very early age, long before any of them have any idea what it means. Unfortunately a lot of the kids use "faggot" or "fag" these days - the influence of US TV. This is a particularly nasty term and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. One of the problems with using gay role models is that a lot of the ones the kids respect are not out publically. Ian Roberts has done a lot but he is only one - and he isn't playing much football these days. It would be different if you could name the gay AFL players, Davis Cup tennis champions, the gays in the Australian Cricket team and the Rugby World Cup team - but you can't because they haven't outed themselves and the reason is often the homophobic attitudes that your kids are expressing. With the Mardi Gras just over for another year it might be worth looking at its origins and the attitudes and laws against gay people around the country including the discriminatory age of consent laws in NSW and WA and the federal Government's discriminatory superannuation laws. You will never be able to teach a bigot to change his/her mind but you can make the rest of the class understand that such attitudes are unacceptable. Do they accept Asian and Aboriginal kids in the school or are are they targets for abuse as well? Do they accept Muslim or Jewish students? If they understand what is acceptable/non acceptable in some areas, they should be able to extrapolate into other areas. From: Tim H(Numpty) 11/03/00 3:15:58 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45714 Rapunzel, I certainly do not envy your situation. Without knowing the individuals involved or the group dynamics it's very hard to come up with a solution, but maybe a couple of ideas would help. The gay role model idea has merits. Until recently, I lived in Townsville, the home of the "North Queensland Cowboys" rugby league team. The captain of that team, until the start of last year was Ian Roberts, a gay man who publicly confronted the stereotypical image of the "Poofta". The captain of a NRL football team (and prop-forward) can hardly be called efeminate. I know that he was a terrific role model to younger gay men in that community and changed alot of homophobic attitudes in others. Dr Ed has a point as well. Perhaps they are struggling with their sexuality and are having a hard time coming to grips with what they are. In that case, there's not a great deal you can do about it. Personally, my attitudes to gay people changed dramaticaly when I found out that some of my friends were gay. I thought to myself "Self, does it really matter that this person is gay. They're the same person they were yesterday and their sexuality is of no concern to me, nor is it any of my business". Which of course brings us to the concept of being concerned that a gay person may try to "crack on" to you. Hmmmm..... it's happened a few times to me. The first time I was shocked and reacted in a totally unacceptable way, but as I've matured I've learned that a simple "No thanks" is all that's required. Just as a straight person wants to be in a relationship with a straight person, a gay person wants to be in a relationship with a gay person (let's not get into bi realationships right now). The basic problem is that they are boys who have not yet had enough life experience to come to their own conclusion and therefore are basing their preducices and values on their role models. The best thing you can do is be a positive role model for them and hope that, at the very least, they might start to question their actions and see that what they are doing is neither acceptable nor fair. Aside from that, you know these people better than we possibly could. You're in the best position to choose the course of action you think they might respond to. Good luck.... :-) From: Tim H(Numpty) 11/03/00 3:31:08 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45716 Unfortunately a lot of the kids use "faggot" or "fag" these days - the influence of US TV. This is a particularly nasty term and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. These terms were around when I was in school (10 years ago) and I don't recall them be any worse than poofta or homo. I'm more than willing to take your word for their true meaning, but isn't their level of severity determined by the user and the person it is directed at? And what are you doing up at 2 o'clock in the morning? Shouldn't you be tracking the fourth incarnation of your namesake? :-) From: steve(primus) 11/03/00 4:04:29 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45718 And what are you doing up at 2 o'clock in the morning? I woke up, watched the last quarter of the Eagles kicking North's arse and came down to see what had been happening in here this evening. "faggot" is particularly offensive as it comes from the faggots or bundles of sticks that were used to burn people, including gays, at the stake. It might not be intended as a term any worse that "poofter" but I can assure you it is received as a particularly nasty term. gay people use "poofter" "queer" and "homo" themselves but they generally don't use "faggot" or "fag". From: Tim H(Numpty) 11/03/00 4:09:02 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45719 Actually, now that you mention it, I had heard the "bundle of sticks" meaning before, but I didn't know about the "burning at the stake" bit. :-) From: Gus 11/03/00 14:29:27 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45736 Punners, being 16 i might be able to help (but i doubt it very much) maybe if you show the a video of the Mardi Gras or something, let them know that gays are real people with real feelings... we have a gay man with aids come and talk to us (but being in a selective school, it was probably alot different). Getting into society and cultural aspects might be helpful... "what is normal?" depends on the culture you are living in. In some countries its normal for men to have sex, in some countries mothers masturbate their sons to sleep, cow dung is seen as a contraceptive to be placed in the vagina after sex, Iranian women feel perfectly normal covered up, and see our ways of dressing as sick and perverted, flaunting yourself. Just because something isnt done by 100% of people doesnt make it evil. You may need to abuse them (lightly) to get the msg through. (choose really homophobic kids )and could try using some of their character traits as examples, or their hobbies... many people would see some of their practices as odd, but they dont. Basically ask them what normal is, and build up on that... show that the "norm" is different all over the place, i like MJR's idea about famous examples. But dont choose some old cheesy rockstar they dislike already :) Good Luck :-) Gus. From: spud(adonai) 11/03/00 14:46:31 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45738 Yeah you could tell them that in India (or pakistan forget which). But over there it is perfectly normal for young males to hold hands,hug, cuddle, (like a male female relationship in the west) etc.. due to their culture... You could remind them the Olympics was originally played out in the nude. Just teach them about the Greeks, or get the ancient histroy teacher to tell them about that society. From: Chris W (Avatar) 11/03/00 16:21:38 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45748 Lib said: True, true. It isn't the best solution, but what can you tell teenage boys? Don't forget the female of the species. Homophobia is not the sole domain of the male student. From: Mjr 11/03/00 16:36:25 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45749 "Don't forget the female of the species. Homophobia is not the sole domain of the male student." A very very valid point! Not so long ago, I was suprised when I found that my female friends were a lot more homophobic than my male friends... In fact, I would say the ratio of female homophobes to male homophobes would have been something like 4:1... of course this was just amongst a group of my friends and holds no real statistical credit at all. Mjr (NUFAH) From: Chris (Avatar) 11/03/00 16:46:40 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45750 I'd like to suggest a different method, Rapunzel. In my experience someone with a strong belief of any kind is like a primitive tribe defending a temple. Some time in their past the tribe constructed a temple. Since then successive generations spend their time outside the temple building it bigger, fortifying it, overlaying it with gold and defending it bitterly. They're safe in the knowledge that their priests are inside and those priests guarantee their temple and defence of it is right. If you attempt to attack the temple in any way it will be defended without thought - defending the temple is right. If you shout insults at the temple they will be ignored. If you try to pull down the temple it will be repaired and refortified. So what do you do? You must encourage the defenders to go inside the temple and see for themselves what they're protecting. Somewhere along the way the fight became more important than the reason for the fight. You must encourage them to see that their priests are old and diseased and they are defending something easily and flimsily built but far more difficult to destroy. Somewhere along the line homosexuality was wrong for these people. It only takes a suggestion, or more often a "role model". Then - and this is the bad bit - it became right to defend homophobia. You have to encourage them to go inside their temples and ask themselves "why is homophobia right? Why do I do this?" The best weapon is the question "Why?" and the best way to do it is one on one or in small groups where there is no group bravado to be shared. Ask "why is gay bashing right?" When they say they don't actually bash, ask "why is it ok to insult them?" Keep asking why to every response until you get them to admit what I guarantee will be some stupid belief at the heart of things. Again, don't tell them it's stupid (attack simply invokes the defence mechanism) encourage them to see it's stupid. If it's religious in origin, ask them why they choose this to defend? Are they as vigorous in their determination not to eat meat on Friday? Why not? etc etc. If they are as bright as you continually suggest they are you should eventually be able to make them feel ashamed (of their own free will). And this is how someone changes their beliefs. You don't change it, they do. Hope this helps! Chris From: Rapunzel 11/03/00 21:36:23 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45777 Hello all :-) Wow, what a terrific response in 24 hours!!! Thanks a lot, your thoughts are much appreciated. For Daryn: BTW, are you giving these people high quality sex ed? When I was in high school, the three weeks of s.e. that were stuck in the middle of our Biology classes were quite sad and lame. I empathise with your classroom memories. Yes, the provision of high quality sex education is one of my number one aims in science teaching. I love science stuff in general, but let’s face it, the majority of people aren’t going to share that broad-scale enthusiasm (although enthusiasm can be infectious). And at junior high school level, I think if there is one topic that is going to be relevant to everybody, it’s sex education. Since I pick up the pieces of the social fallout associated with unwanted pregnancies, broken relationships, lives that have fallen to pieces, neglected children etc I am adamant to do all I can to prevent ignorance causing such scenarios to repeat themselves with the next generation. Obviously sex education is only a part of that, but it’s an important part. And it’s a part which not every teacher is willing to be totally thorough and open about. I feel that I owe it to the next generation to provide them with accurate and thorough information and to answer all their questions as best as I possibly can. Since I’m just over a decade older than most of my students are, it’s still quite easy for me to do away with the social / hierarchical barriers and be on the same level rather than above them. And because I’m still young, they don’t misconstrue me as being asexual, so they will talk very seriously to me about sex education related stuff. We cover physiology, contraception, social issues, misconceptions, anything they want to talk about -the only rules are: Use appropriate language, and stay clear of people’s personal lives. I have a question box where everybody anonymously posts their really embarrassing questions, and then we subsequently deal with those in class. I’ve had some funny ones, besides obvious ones like "Can you get pregnant standing up" etc; the funniest one to date, from a Year 9 class when we’d just finished a unit on pressure, buoyancy etc, was, "What is the pressure in PSI in an average erect penis?" - Well, I had no idea, but we had some fun as a class trying to devise experiments which would answer that question. Much to my amusement, a sphygmomanometer was suggested by one of them! :-) To Lib: I really would have no idea how to reason with opinionated adolescents. They know it all of course and no one can tell them otherwise, so what do you do? Hhhmmm. :-) Since I was an extremely opinionated adolescent and constantly in trouble with authoritarian teachers in junior high school, I can empathise totally with that subset of students; and I think it helps me to communicate with them. But in actual fact, many of the teenagers I have worked with have impressed me to no end with their maturity, their humour, their intelligence, their basic decency as human beings. And unlike most adults, many adolescents are so fresh, and so ready to laugh, and to be amazed. I consider myself to be privileged to work with them. In fact I think I learn more from them than they learn from me. I love my job! I just wish it was easier… but that’s probably just a question of time. Though the goalposts seem to move even before you reach them. To Steve: BTW I’m sitting here on my bum writing this because your namesake has resulted in unusual amounts of moisture in the air even as far down as Albany, and it’s still pouring, as it has been for two days! Do they accept Asian and Aboriginal kids in the school or are are they targets for abuse as well? That’s OK with most of the student population, although you do get some rednecks who make appalling comments such as, "We played spot-the-Aussie last time we went to Perth." Much of the homophobia and anti-poofta talk is to do with being different and that is huge crime in the schoolyard. I have a huge amount of empathy for those who commit the crime of being different from the herd. Since I’m not an Anglo-Celtic person I experienced racial taunting firsthand for the first few years after coming out to Australia. Also having different ideas, values and aspirations to the status quo, being younger than my peers, and being an academic achiever in a time where such achievement resulted in negative responses from many people around you. Interestingly enough, most of that stopped when I was just under 15, and went to the city for my final two years of secondary education. I suspect both the increasing maturity of those around me, and the fact that I landed with a particularly nice set of friends and teachers, had much to do with that. From: Rapunzel 11/03/00 21:40:20 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45780 Much of the homophobia and anti-poofta talk is to do with being different and that is huge crime in the schoolyard. I have a huge amount of empathy for those who commit the crime of being different from the herd. Since I’m not an Anglo-Celtic person I experienced racial taunting firsthand for the first few years after coming out to Australia. Also having different ideas, values and aspirations to the status quo, being younger than my peers, and being an academic achiever in a time where such achievement resulted in negative responses from many people around you. Interestingly enough, most of that stopped when I was just under 15, and went to the city for my final two years of secondary education. I suspect both the increasing maturity of those around me, and the fact that I landed with a particularly nice set of friends and teachers, had much to do with that. But once you have experienced that sort of alienation, you never, ever forget it; and it makes you absolutely determined to do all you can to stop it happening to others. To Chris: Thank you, very thoughtful. I can see that I need to prevent creating a "martyrs for their cause" scenario but wasn’t quite sure how to go about that. I will give it a go. Hopefully I’m not going to have to deal with the senior templekeepers in the process… To all: If you haven’t seen Jane Elliot’s Blue-Eyed yet, watch it. It’s inspirational - and extremely disconcerting. Rapunzel From: mit 12/03/00 11:58:50 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 45840 Dear chapesses and chaps, From a scientific viewpoint one level of attack on the problem of homophobia could be to look at DNA evidence from twins studies linking some homosexuality to genetics. Carried as a non-expressive by the mother if my swiss cheese memory is correct. The study was published in Science, I'm not sure when, early 90's I think. However, probably the best way to combat homophobia is through association with Nazis. The pink triangle was used as an identification symbol for homosexuals in fascist Europe. If your teenagers wish to be associated with Nazis then they are sick puppies. This could also open up an interesting discussion on the dangers of biological determinism in social policy i.e. genetic superiority, rape being a natural part of life, strict division of roles between the sexes in humans and other such bumkin that masquerades as biology. Cheers mit From: Dr Paul (Avatar) 13/03/00 10:31:02 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 46089 Hi Rapunzel, *The below is personal opinion and so should be considered that, not taken for anything but* If you are into the Sex Education Classes, an interesting angle to take might be to try to get the students attitudes towards their personal relationships with each other. Rather than go into the mechanics of Hetero or Homo sexual sex, a few lessons in what it means to be in a relationship before any of the mechanics of sexual relationships may open their minds into what it is to be an adult and caring for other people. Some of your students are displaying Homophobic behaviour. I agree that such behaviour should not be tolerated as , in group behaviour, the encouragement of false bravado will lead to bashings and other violence against those not considered normal, by such groups of people. It may be better to discuss what a relationship is in terms of building a partnership between people who may care for each other. This may open their eyes in terms of how each of them is seen by others, whether they are thought of as geeks or roughnecks. I would be of the general opinion that each of your 15 or 16 year old adolescents have sufficient knowledge of the mechanics of sex to be able to get by. I am fairly certain my son, who is not 14 knows sufficient of the mechanics of sex to get by (apologies for the embarrassment , but hi Adam). At 15 or 16, a discussion of how people relate to each other in terms of friendship or in terms of building a life partnership may be a very valuable asset for these young people. I am certain my son could use a course of discussion between his teachers and peers on the mechanics of relationships between himself, his peers and others in his circle of influence. As these students are not children, but on the verge of adulthood, a serious attitude towards analysing how they currently relate to people and how their behaviour may influence others behaviour and attitude towards themselves may enable the more boisterous to consider that the "geeks" or the "less strong" of their peers are still people. It may allow the voices of the less boisterous to be heard above the shouting. It may allow all the students to realise that they have a positive input to make, and may actually learn that a more open attitude to others will allow them to gain more from the relationships with all the other students. It may be a way to introduce ideas such as the development of a life partnership, whether a heterosexual or homosexual relationship, underaking a sexual relationship and the consequences involved with such, the development of attitudes towards others in terms of a sexual relationship, this being in terms of consideration towards others, the ideas of consent and the ability to have the freedom of consent, whether they want to develop strong platonic relationships (sex is not the only form of relationship), the thinking about what it is to be a parent and what each of them might want to acheive in terms of long term relationships and in their lives. Rapunzel, you have opened an important chapter in their lives, the opening of their eyes in terms of who they are and how they develop relationships with each other. Hopefully all the students will be mature enough to close their mouths for the few seconds which allows the mind to open. Best wishes with the course over the next few weeks. Paul From: helen 13/03/00 11:29:30 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 46095 hey Rapunzel - kudos to you for taking this on, and for wanting to make a difference. My first thoughts were pretty much along the lines of what Chris said - if you get them to confront the "why" part themselves, it's likely they'll be able to see how unjustified the beliefs underlying their jokes and comments are, without needing to be defensive about it. Some other thoughts: In grade 12 biology, our (very young) teacher was at a bit of a loss in sorting out some differences of opinion on whether natural selection/survival of the fittest still applied to human beings. Instead of dictating the answer to us, she just divided the class into "for" and "against", and let us hammer out the arguments for ourselves. I remember it as a really useful, thought-provoking class, but that may not be representative. I have no idea whether this would work for your group of grade 10's, or with this issue, but might be worth considering, especially if you have some articulate kids who are willing to speak up against homophobia, and if you're sure you can do a good debrief. As a lot of people have said, part of this behaviour is to do with their perception of what's acceptable in their peer group. If they can see that this perception isn't accurate, that may be another way of changing the behaviour. Another thing worth considering is getting someone from a local gay rights or support group (or perhaps PFLAG?) to come in and talk to the class. They may have to be prepared for a little flack, but if they're able to address some of the concerns of the class in an open way, you may find this is a quick way to diffuse the in-group/out-group thing that some of your students are stuck in ("ooooh, gay people, they're not like us"). This actually has some basis in research: time spent working or talking with members of an outgroup does seem to reduce prejudice, at least in the short-term. I like Paul's suggestion about discussing relationships, too - but what about focussing on friendships? Statistically, it's quite likely you'll have a couple of kids in the class who are now realising, or have always known they're gay. What does being a friend mean if your friends can't tell you something like that without fear of being abused? I think it's easy for kids to forget that they're making jokes about real people, who could be their best mates, or their brothers and sisters. good luck, anyway! From: Kothos 13/03/00 23:23:57 Subject: re: Not really science but... post id: 46258 I have to rush to bed and I haven't read through this whole thread, but I figure I'll add my two cents worth. As far as I would go, the only thing I would do to try to change a kids mind about a prejudice is to tell them the truth. If they're too stupid to understand in the time frame available, then I reckon there's no hope, so just give them detention or something. As for the truth - just explain to them that they are being weak minded sheep, and that their entire viewpoint has been conditioned into them by societal prejudice (people being gay doesn't hurt anyone, so why hate it?), and if they want to continue to be spineless cowards they can go right ahead. If they're making gay jokes they're probably trying to appear heaps macho - but if you point out how it's actually really wimpy they might see their error. I don't think it would work to try and point to great gay people and say "Look" coz that would probably just turn them off. As an intensely homophobic teenager I was bitterly disappointed whenever one of my hero's turned out to be gay. And if they find out if one of their friends is gay, things might get nasty. This forum is un-moderated. 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