From: john H (eeidi) 22/01/00 22:18:28 Subject: You are bloody huge! post id: 29017 What effects do the following have on building muscle? 1.) High, successive reps such as push-ups. 2.) Low reps, holding muscle in tension for a short count. Which is more effective? From: Gus 22/01/00 22:25:21 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29019 depends... high reps with light weights give strength + retain flexibility.. low reps with small houses, give bulk. Pushups are great keep ur elbows str8 down the side of ur body, wiht ur hands close together From: john H (eeidi) 22/01/00 22:32:05 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29022 Pushups are great You don't have to convince me Gus! i think that pushups are so under-rated as an upper body strengthening exercise. They can be done anywhere. What about doing conventional successive push ups versus doing a few push ups and holding tension for a few counts? From: scotty 22/01/00 22:33:41 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29024 I was told that you need a muscle to have 75% of its max strength as a load, to lncrease muscle mass, if you can lift 100kg, then it no good to lift 50kg, (you just are not pushing hard enough) no matter how many you do! it would have to be over 75kg. thats if you want to go for mass From: john H (eeidi) 22/01/00 22:36:20 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29026 I just want to tone and define. Perhaps just a little bulking up of the chest. From: john H (eeidi) 22/01/00 22:39:11 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29028 Pushups are also so flexible! Who says that you need one of those fangdangled exercise contraptions?! By simply shifting your weight forward or back or even moving your hands into different positions, one can place different parts of the torso under great tension. From: Kothos 22/01/00 22:41:42 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29030 Coupled with sit-ups, leg raises, chin-ups and running, you can pretty much manage anything you want without having to resort to anything more tangible than gravity. That's pretty cool I reckon. From: Grant¹ 22/01/00 22:43:08 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29033 This is Mac's field, however. Big heavy weights, low reps (6 or less)- strength. Meduim to heavy weights, medium reps (10-15)- bulk. Low to medium weights, high reps (15-30)- toning. For someone who has done no weight work at all, even low weights & high reps will give some, though slight, bulking effect & will give considerable increases in strength. For bulking up, 3-4 exercises, 4-6 sets of an exercise with up to 15 reps in each set. Generally increasing the weight until failure occurs around 5 reps, then reducing the weight so you can get 8 or so reps on the last set. There are dozens of variations on this basic format. As to to how much you bulk up, depends on your genetics. Callista Flockhart (Ally McBeal) could do an intensive routine with Human growth Hormone, Steriods, the works & not get much bigger than she is now. If Dean Lukin was to go back to the gym, even without any steriods etc he would bulk up & become very big. As for the body builders you see in the magazines & on TV- i personally don't believe it's possible for anyone to get that big without the aid of HGH, steriods etc. Mac, what's your opinion? Flexibilty hasn't anything to do with bulk as long as you stretch properly after each session. I'm personally able to stretch more after a hard leg workout than just a light workout. From: Grant¹ 22/01/00 22:53:37 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29041 Initially, pushups do give strength improvements- many people are unable to do them unless on their knees instead of their toes. Once you are able to do 10 or more on your toes, any improvements from pushups are stamina, not strength, related. As you are also able to many reps, they are good for toning also. From: Rapunzel 23/01/00 1:52:17 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29069 You don't have to convince me Gus! i think that pushups are so under-rated as an upper body strengthening exercise. They can be done anywhere. Has anyone here tried doing pushups while standing on your hands? (supported against a wall) Really difficult. I've tried for 10 months and can't recover if I go more than halfway to the ground. My current limit is about three such push-ups one-third of the way down to the ground and back up. I tried getting some of the footballers in my Human Biology class to see what they could do and it was pretty similar (but they didn't have the practice and most of them were hopeless at standing on their hands, which was probably their biggest problem because they certainly beat me at normal pushups). Could some of the guys on this forum try it and feed back to me as to how they went? Adult males have a huge advantage when it comes to upper body strength. Thanks for being my guinea-pigs! :-) Rapunzel (the things I do in my tower!) From: Grant¹ 23/01/00 2:13:10 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29070 They're shoulder presses & yes, thay're very hard as it's the shoulder muscles (Trapezius & Deltoids) doing the work & not he pecs. When at school had a PE teacher who for the first class he took of the year7s who would give $10 to anyone who could do a press from head stand (offer only valid that day). He never lost his $10 (that was really big money 20+ yrs ago). Just tried it & nearly popped a blood vessel. When pressing free weights my 1 rep max is about 45-50kg, although the weight does come down slightly lower than pushing up from a headstand. I can bench more than my body weight (85kg), but to should press that much- no way. Might have another go one day when at the gym when warmed up, still probably won't help though. NB- DON'T try it if you have any sort of shoulder or wrist problems. Could really make a horrible mess of things. From: Mac 23/01/00 2:19:32 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29072 I don't often get a chance to answer so forgive me now if I go overboard. With pushups you have to remember you are lifting your body weight, not something to be taken lightly. As with any form of training progressive overload is the key. If you can bench press 80kg over 3 sets with 12 reps in each and you continue along this pathway then strength gains will be minimal. Your muscles will not change if they don't have to....increasing the weight will allow the muscle concerned to train to exhaustion. We are born with a finite number of muscle fibers, no study to date has shown that hyperplasia (fiber spliting) is possible in humans. Changes in muscle size are from hypertrophy, where the cross sectional area of the fibers increases. Any form of resistance training be it for endurance, size, strength or power will result in some hypertrophy. Differences in programming will achieve further differences. But it is not possible to say that low volume/heavy load will work on all muscle. Fast twitch fibers and slow twitch fibers react differently to resistance training. For optimal hypertrophy in fast twitch low volume/heavy load is best, whilst for slow twitch muscle high volume/low load is best for slow twitch. But general rules for resistance training are: 1RM is the maximum you can lift once!!! 3 sets for beginners, can increase up to approx 6 sets (multiple sets will give better strength gains than single set programs); 6 or less reps are best for strength and power as the reps increase the effect becomes more an endurance thing. 8-12RM is a general rule for bulking up. For bulk and shape minimal rest periods between sets, for strength 45sec-1min. There are literally hundreds of variations concerning muscle building. But unless you are looking to compete then 3-6 sets of 8-12RM with minimal rest in between is a good starting point. Each rep should be done slowly not fast as your see most people do in a gym (unless training for endurance) resist gravity in the second half of the movement i.e when the weight is coming back down. Holding tesion at a specific muscle is a good form of training (isometric) but gains will be more directed at strength rather than bulk. Extremely good for posture control in preventing lower back pain or recovery from same. Only use if experienced with resistance training. About 6-12 secs of tension is enough and only 90 seconds per muscle groups in a session, rest periods of about 60-90secs. Remember warm up first to a light sweat, stretch, exercise then stretch again. Latest research also shows that stretching inbetween sets might not be a good thing. Forget weight gain powders waste of money and do not even try 'roids, HGH, 'cutting' agents etc...most are for use by animals and the full effects are only slightly understood. Did I miss anything? Cheers Mac From: Mac 23/01/00 2:27:57 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29073 Don't try it at all...or you may end up with shoulder or wrist problems. Body weight exercises are not a good way to go...especially if there is no long term background of resistance training. But if you really have to I'll be more than happy to rehabilitate you after surgery. Cheers Mac From: john H 23/01/00 14:37:50 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29116 Body weight exercises are not a good way to go...especially if there is no long term background of resistance training. Huh? Sorry Mac, but I still don't understand why. Could you elaborate on the pros and cons of body weight exercises as opposed to conventional weight training? From: Rapunzel 23/01/00 15:16:50 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29140 Hi Mac Well, I'm sorry to say that, but I really expected that sort of negativity from you. Don't try it at all...or you may end up with shoulder or wrist problems. Body weight exercises are not a good way to go...especially if there is no long term background of resistance training. But if you really have to I'll be more than happy to rehabilitate you after surgery. I have stood on my hands for yonks, I have climbed mountains and done situps and cartwheels and ridden horses bareback at the gallop and sailed on a racing crew and gone in cycling time trials and run miles and done all manner of healthy exercise, and I have never knowingly or otherwise done irreparable damage to my body in the process, or experienced any real physical pain as a result. In fact, and you can ask my GP to verify for you if you wish, I am far healthier than the average person my age, and I think my lifestyle (including the exercise I do) has something to do with it. I'm not planning on becoming a couch potato and succumbing to a cardiac arrest because of naysayers like yourself. I've had this debate with you before, and I maintain that my lifestyle is loads healthier than wrapping yourself up in cotton wool and vegetating in front of the TV for fear of doing damage to your body. If you're going to naysay me because of the fact that I will not repent of situps and of standing on my hands and, God forbid, even attempting to do pushups while doing the latter, may I for consistency's sake ask you to formally naysay all people present involved in any high-impact sports such as football, rugby, basketball, tennis, etc etc. After all, those sports have a record of producing physical injury in many of its adherents, and I have as yet to experience such an injury. You may for a change allow me a little scrap of credibility as well. I am well versed in human anatomy and physiology, and I actually live in my own body which you are so happy to make long-distance judgements about. Also may I, in the name of risk minimisation, ask you to cease using your motor vehicle, and more importantly, to remove your testicles (if you have any - I'm assuming you are male), since it has been clearly demonstrated that castration has a positive effect on the extension of the human life span. Regards Rapunzel PS: One of my friends is an 87-year-old lady who attempted handstand pushups all her life, along with numerous other forms of exercise. She is in remarkable shape, still goes climbing, and has experienced none of the damaging consequences you have mentioned. She doesn't even have arthritis. Granted, one example isn't statistically significant; but if you wish to debate statistically significant studies with me, be my guest. From: kelvin fox 23/01/00 15:52:47 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29161 Hi there When I was a teenager (half a lifetime ago) i was mega fit in terms of running endurance but I wasn't very strong. About 13 years ago I damamged my back by lots of incorrect lifting of heavy objects. Since then (about 8 years ago) I became aerobically fit again (aerobics cycling swimming running). now I am a bit of a couch potato and I don't have huge amounts of back strength. I have poor posture for things like sitting in chairs etc. What exercises do I need to do to give me better back strength so that I can move into running again without getting lower back pain? kelvin From: john H 23/01/00 15:57:41 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29167 Kelvin, I suffer from ocassional lower back pain as well. My doctor recommended exercises to strengthen my stomach muscles and my mid-section (sides of your stomach, below ribs). Strengthening these muscles provides great support for the ower back especially for strenuous lifting activities. So you should do any exercise places tension on these areas... From: Rapunzel 23/01/00 16:12:26 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29174 It seems that I also suffer from poor spelling and grammer as well. No prob; you can do exercises for that too! ;-) Kelvin: I strengthen my back muscles in part by lying on the floor face-down and then lifting my arms and torso off the floor slowly. But of course, mac will go into conniptions again when he hears of this. Because I don't have a back problem, I suggest you talk to someone who would know what kind of exercises are OK if you have had a back injury. The spinal column is a delicate beast which carries some rather important cabling... It's all iffy business. My mum had to have surgery on her lumbar region after lifting something the wrong way in her 30s. Currently we have a horse with a pinched spinal nerve whom we are now treating with special back exercises and hind leg stretches; and it's improved him significantly after standard veterinary treatment with anti-inflammatory drugs, cortisone etc failed abysmally. Hope you find something that's going to work for you. Cheers :-) Rapunzel From: kelvin fox 23/01/00 16:13:57 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29176 Hi there thanks for the ideas. Any specific exercises? Kelvin From: Grant¹ 23/01/00 16:18:17 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29178 Lower back problems- can often be caused by overly strong stomach muscles. Many people do cruches by the 100, yet don't work their back, reslting in an imbalance & thus problems with the lower back as the muscles aren't strong enough to balance the abs. As for those that can push up from a headstand- try gymnasts. Most of whom are 5' 6" or less (sorry, not metric with peoples heights) giving them considerable mechanical advantge. Not wishing to put words into Mac's mouth, however- his comments are based on his training & experience in treating & rehabilitating those that have injured themselves. As you (Rapunzel) have said, you are fit & healthy & so are more physically able to attempt what can be considered very advanced exercises. Many problems occur due to people that aren't fit & healthy attempting things beyond their present capability. Also many people that do exercise do so with poor form & technique which doesn't necessarily result in an acute injuy, but very often in a chronic one. The old story "i've been doing this for years with no problems" is often due to the fact that it can take years for the problems of poor form & technique to manifest itself- as demonstrated by kelvin. I don't recall your previous descussions with Mac, but all the posts i remeber him making don't advocate a couch potato lifestyle- in fact the opposite. What he does stress though is doing any exercise properly. From: Grant¹ 23/01/00 16:28:00 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29184 Back exercises- as Rapunzel pointed out lying face down on the ground, feet about shoulder width apart with toes reamaining on the ground all the time. Slowly bring your upper body up keeping your feet on the ground & then down again. When doing this initially you can do it with your arms in front & partly under you to help if you if your back is really weak. As you get stronger you can then put your arms behind you back while lifing you upper body up & down. Even more advanced, hands at the side of your head & put a twist to the left & right as you go up. Most important- keep your toes touching the ground at all times. This reduces the pressure on the lower back. There are also dead lifts & stiff legged dead lifts, but these are very advanced exercises- ie high level of risk. Even more important- see someone who is a specialist in lower back problems for a diagnosis & exercise routine. Just doing a routine could make things worse. From: Rapunzel 23/01/00 16:32:25 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29188 You have some points there, Grant, but what he also does is to make wholesale statements and long-distance judgements to which I absolutely object. I also think he's been very inconsistent in his naysaying of me. And perhaps you'd like to give me a ring when I'm 87 like Marjorie, to see if I've been permanently damaged by any of those things I do. Injury is possible for anyone, but statistically speaking, I expect to be injury-free for far longer than anyone involved in football, rugby, basketball, soccer, tennis etc. Yet I haven't heard mac pronounce a blanket ban on those sports as he has on my (and Marjorie's) penchant for doing handstands and attempting pushups in that position. I have no delusions of invincibility, I don't push myself beyond what I think is healthy for my body, and I do take risk minimisation seriously. But I also live. And risk minimisation is a complex business, not just a simplistic list of forbidden items. Cheers Rapunzel From: Kothos 23/01/00 16:57:04 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29198 Someone like James or one of the Chris' or whoever ever else has studied law could give specifics, but in general it's better to include a disclaimer if ever you give advice which could be construed as being given in a professional capacity (on the other hand, if you make it obvious you're not a professional in that field, it's the victims call whether to listen to you or not). On the note of exercise vs. risk, I've busted a knee twice doing terrible damage (okay, maybe not that terrible, but it's the worst (physical) thing ever to happen to me). The first time was rockclimbing (I took a stupid step) and the second was just walking through the garage (I took an even stupider step). I think it's a persons call how much risk they take during exercise. You can die doing lots of safe things, like sleeping on a spring mattress, or ringing a doorbell. To paraphrase Ben Elton, when you get drunk and sick everywhere and fall down and break your leg, everyone screams, "Well, you brung it on yourself, you shouldn't have done that, it's your own fault init??" but when a hang-gliderer plummets to the bottom of a cliff and breaks their leg they're a bloody hero aren't they? No one stands around screaming, "Well it's your own fault, you shouldn't have jumped, you brung it on yourself dint you??" Where's the justice in that? since it has been clearly demonstrated that castration has a positive effect on the extension of the human life span Bloody hell, that'd be typical. From: Rapunzel 23/01/00 17:24:47 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29203 Hi Kothos Someone like James or one of the Chris' or whoever ever else has studied law could give specifics, but in general it's better to include a disclaimer if ever you give advice which could be construed as being given in a professional capacity (on the other hand, if you make it obvious you're not a professional in that field, it's the victims call whether to listen to you or not). OK, but did you notice three things: 1) That the initial post I made on upside-down pushups was obviously notwritten as a "professional recommendation" 2) The bit I wrote in red in a subsequent post, and 3) That I have pointed out the need for professional advice in subsequent posts. If you were referring to me at all, Kothos! But notice I stayed out of the original topic in this thread. However, I do stand by what I have said in all of my posts in this thread. Rapunzel PS: Professional advice is great. So is a second and third opinion! From: Gus 23/01/00 20:36:36 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29265 Rapunzel.... A guy from my Karate had a few times training 1st grade footballers.... they couldnt do TEN pushups with your arms str8 down from your shoulders, about say 25cm apart on the ground... thats the beauty of that type of pushup! I will have to do a few thousand at my black-belt grading in November :( Oh well. From: Grant¹ 23/01/00 22:10:18 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29302 Gus, That form of pushup works mostly the shoulder muscles also, the pecs don't have much to do with it. As you pointed out earlier, having the arms to the side of the body & the hands placed below the level of you pecs means your pecs do most of the work when doing a pushup. It's also a good idea to do them using your knuckles, making sure the weight isn't just on the knuckles, but also on the first 2 fingers fingers (which are in a fist). This makes the pushups even more effective & reduces the strain on the wrists. Also when doing a pushup it should be your chest going to the ground, but not quite touching, NOT your groin or thighs. The abdominals should be tight. For myself i prefer to turn my head to one side or the other & not look forward as this places a lot of pressure on the vertebrae in the neck if you lift your head up so that it's your chest that almost touches the ground & not your face or chin. From: Alan™ 23/01/00 23:27:36 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29326 But I'm sure guys should be able to do vertical pushups better than myself. Actually I've found that once you get to the stage of looking at people who can climb well, that the females have better technique, strength etc than the guys. It just that climbing is still seen as being macho and the females aren't as encouraged as much as they should be. From: Grant¹ 23/01/00 23:34:31 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29329 Yes, it was interesting to see that Stallone climbing movie (can't remeber the name, Cliffhanger maybe?) with Sly being a great rock climber. All the climbers i've ever seen (on TV) are short to average height & very, very, very wiry, not a hulking great mass of muscle. Bulk may look impressive, but it's not much good for anything other than lifting weights or intimidating people. From: Mac.. 24/01/00 1:09:15 Subject: re: You are bloody huge! post id: 29411 Oh man I'm gonna get in trouble here again. Ok exercises for back injuries. Chronic back pain can be caused by a number of things and could be as simple as soft tissue strain to something far more complex as a disc protrusion and neural compromise. Stabilisation exercises for the pelvis and core should be the backbone to any back strengthening regime. The tranverse abdominal being the key to good rehabilitation. The obliques and the rectus abdominus (six pack) come second in this race. Try this: lie on your back, knees bent feet flat. You will have a natural arch in your lumbar spine. Tighten your stomach muscles by pulling them in and upwards, but do not hold your breath. As you hold this position tilt your pelvis/hips upwards allowing that curve in your spine to flatten against the floor. If your buttocks come off the floor or you fel unreasonable tension in your quads then you are probably trying to hard. Hold this position for approx 10secs. This pelvic tilt can be done sitting, standing against a wall or lying down. It is a basic core exercise. The exercise already discussed (face down raising shoulders from ground etc) should not be attempted by anyone whose underlying pathology for their back pain has not been determined. As a rule I never allow my patients to perform a hyperextension such as thisa until their core strength is adequate, I'm sorry but its the old body weight thing again. The same goes for sit ups/crunches especially if your injury has a hint of scoliosis in its makeup. Of course situps/crunches and hyperextensions done properly are all good exercises for people with no evidence of lower back pain or who get a clearance from their exercise physiologist and/or physio. Cheers Mac This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages.