|
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
8/07/99
9:30:19
|
| Subject: Race and Racism |
post id:
22405
|
Hello doctor Karl
love your
show
I was just wondering if you or anyone could answer my question as
honestly and inemotionatly as possible because i'm not that old and am
only learning in this life,
my question is can anyone tell me why I
should not be Racist as defined as higher or lower races because all
scientific evidence suggests to me i should be. i refer to the "In The
Harsh Reality
Of Life Race Is Measured On What A Race Can Invent"
phrase, anyone with emotional hipe do not bother, if I do not recieve any
answers I may become a Non-Hating Racist because there is no evidence to
tell me not to. or are we all.
I Hope you Can Help.
Love
|
| From: Terry Frankcombe |
8/07/99
9:35:35
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22406
|
In The Harsh
Reality Of Life Race Is Measured On What A Race Can
Invent
Where has this come
from?
|
| From: Tim H (Numpty) |
8/07/99
9:41:55
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22409
|
David,
Could you clarify
you position for me? Am I correct in sumising that you are saying that is
that races who do not invent marvelous machines run by microcomputers are
somehow inferior?
People invent what they need to in order to
survive. I you were thrown into the jungle of PNG or South America with a
laptop, you might last a day if you hadn't already recieved some sort of
training. Does this theory suggest that people born in Australia (for
example) from parents who have immigrated from an underdeveloped country
are in some way inferior, or are we saying that once there here they are
just like the rest of us.
People are people David. That's the
bottom line. The culture they grew up in has nothing to do with there
IQ.
Where did you get this quote
from?
|
| From: Allen Greenspan |
8/07/99
12:24:25
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22483
|
Yes Tim H i do beleive i would
survive
because with that invention I would ring through
a Sat
connection and get someone to drive another invention called a 4WDrive out
and pick me up.
thank you.
you people are only confirming my
convictions,
so far
and by the way, an invention could be Fractional
Reserve Banking it doesn't have to be a matirial thing. It can be an
idea,
and for the people that will send a reply saying my convictions
are already confirmed, don't
because there not, I not likeing being a
racist already.
|
| From: Darren M |
8/07/99
13:37:41
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22504
|
The level of invention, ideas,
philosophy, culture etc that a race develops over time is based far more
on the proportion of their time spent on tasks required for basic survival
than any intelectual differences between races.
For example in
native Australia food is scarce and hard to find, so Aboriginies had to
spend almost all their time just to gather enough food to survive.
In
Europe the land is fertile and food is easily come by so they did not need
to spend as much time on basic survival, they had more time for abstract
thought. Which leads to ideas from better food gathering techniques
(farming (there are examples of Aboriginal farming in NT however it is
beleived these were abanoned as they would not have been very productive
due to climate etc)), philosophy, and inventions not required for basic
survival etc.
Nowadays it is based more on opportunity, access to
schooling etc which is far greater in Europe and the nations they formed
(US,Aus,Canada) than in third world countries.
Hope this
helps
Darren Marsh
|
| From: Di |
8/07/99
13:45:51
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22509
|
Is it racist to notice certain
characteristics of a race? OR does it just depend on how one puts it?
|
| From: Mr Cohen |
8/07/99
13:49:18
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22512
|
Beautiful, Beautiful, so very
beautiful,
it's beautiful that thoses last two reply's where taken off,
but you know what,
Wow if this question stays on here for a
month,
with no acceptable answer proving that, David wrong, you know
what i'm going to do, i'm calling the governments and media of the world
and telling them that they all have it wrong, and that it's ok to be
racist,
it's not ok to be violent because of race i'll tell them but
i'll tell them nevertheless,
and the reason ill make that call is
because with all the scientific minds that unfailingly come to these
addresses not one could give him an answer,
an answer to prove this
wrong,
But you Know what the truth is, that I could make that
call.
and it wouldn't register a beat a quiver, nothing and that's the
beautiful thing you see when you humans are pressed with the truth you
clam up,
You see that's why we Rule you Aryans, We Rule your
government, Most of your Army's, your Economy your society we rule weather
you make your house repayments,
Hey here's a thought get a Pic of Adolf
Hitler,
not the shit we put all over the media but a real pic, one
where he's in pose, and look into thoses eye's, you are looking at
Humanity at it's highest point, we defeated that totaly, now for instance
have a look at another Aryan Bill Clinton when he speaks look at him, is
he smileing no he's laughing, what's he know that you don't and for the
person that will take this off good work. thank you.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
8/07/99
14:01:36
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22517
|
Yes Darren M thank you have
helped a lot,
you have convinced me pretty soundly that that's how we
got to this point,
but Sir, should I define race in 1999 in a higher or
lower capacity.
|
| From: Daryn Voss |
8/07/99
14:10:47
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22523
|
BTW, Europeans have only really
had technological superiority for the last 500 years or so. At various
times in history, the Arab, Persian, Chinese and Indian people have all
been the technological leaders.
I suspect we are entering (or have
entered) an era where the Asians will be doing more innovation than the
Europeans (and their descendants). 8^)
|
| From: Darren M |
8/07/99
14:44:19
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22537
|
"should I define race in 1999 in
a higher or lower capacity"
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by
this could you please expand on it.
If you mean is one race inately
more capable that another on an intelectual level then no.
You should
not make sweeping generalisations about any group of people. Are all
redheads below me because I have brown hair like most caucasians? Do all
caucasians have the same level of intelligence as
me?
|
| From: DigitalRadio1918 |
8/07/99
14:54:33
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22544
|
I Disagree Mr Voss , at this
point anyway,
because i do not think we have entered that period at
all, for example in theory and i say Theory ,China a great nation could
have been racialy elliminated in the Korean War bye any American Weapon of
Mass Destruction,
and The Highest Military Tech Seems still to be
coming from the Aryans in America and Scandinavia , and Military Tech is
always a good example of testing technology race wise, because it is
driven by the ultimate hiden hand, your own survival, and Darren M is that
to say an Aboriginal Australian with less time spent on hunting will begin
over time to become inventive how long do you suppose this would
take.(legitimate Question)
any thoughts on race
mixing.
|
| From: DigitalRadio1918 |
8/07/99
14:57:37
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22546
|
No Di I Don't think it is Racist
to do that,
Racist is to discriminate against someone because, and
based on their race.
hope that
helps.
|
| From: Di |
8/07/99
15:01:29
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22547
|
Good because i have noticed tht a
lot of chinese have reading glasses. I didn't want to ask why without
seeming racist.
Also another one i was thinkin about was the old
"jewish being careful with money" thing. I could understand how this could
be considering their heritage of not even having a country or a
life.
|
| From: steve(primus) |
8/07/99
15:06:34
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22550
|
Racism is not remarking on the
physical or geographical differences between races but the stereotyping of
characteristics that people associate with those differences. For instance
"Scots are mean", " Aborigines are lazy drunks", "Jews are usurers",
"Tasmanians are inbred and stupid", "poms don't wash", are racist
statements becasue they continue a derogatory stereotype.
No race
is "higher" or "lower" than any other just as no language is "better" or
"worse" than any other. All people today are alive because their
particular race survived.
As for calling for a 4WD by a satellite
connection from your laptop, I could put you in places in Australia that
are only accessible on foot - 4WDs can't get in there. And if you are
considering PNG, there are vast areas totally inaccessible by 4WD, and
inaccessible by helicopter as well.
Food was not scarce for the
majority of Aborigines, only the desert dwellers who knew where to look.
The coastal people had, and used an abundance of food, which is why they
had plenty of time for art, singing and ceremony - and gossipping like
everyone else.
|
| From: Terry Frankcombe |
8/07/99
15:48:27
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22579
|
Oh what a wonderous thread! Let
me start at the begining....
In The
Harsh Reality Of Life Race Is Measured On What A Race Can
Invent
OK Allen, you've put this statement up on a science
forum. Is this a proposition, an observation or an argued conclusion? What
sort of response do you want from it? My immediate, unemotional reaction
is 'What a load of crap.' Are you saying that you choose to measure race
by invention? Why that measure? Why do you feel a need to measure race in
the first place? Where has the 'more invention makes a better race' value
judgement implicit in your post come from? It is certainly not in this
phrase.
If you want a good reason not to be racist: Without all the
religious overtones, it really comes down to 'do unto others...' What if
all of a sudden you find yourself identified with a race that isn't at the
top of whatever heap society chooses to construct? If you have lived with
racist attitudes, then you haven't a leg to stand on to attemt to prevent
all the unjust and down-right nasty shit that starts to happen to
you.
Darren:
Nowadays it is based more on
opportunity, access to schooling etc which is far greater in Europe and
the nations they formed (US,Aus,Canada) than in third world
countries.
Can you name a region (continent-scale), barring
northern Asia, where Europeans haven't formed nations?
Mr
Cohen:
In my opinion, you are indeed a sad, deluded individual, and
I pity you. That is a value judgement.
Steve and
Di:
DigitalRadio1918 got it right Steve. Stereotyping is not being
racist, descriminationg on the basis of a stereotype is. Allow me to take
a couple of your examples:
"Scots are mean"---Indeed, there are
particular personality characteristics which you can ascribe to people of
Scottish origin, just like any cultural group. While it doesn't imply
anything for any particular individual, on the whole that is a
characteristic easily associated with Scots.
"Aborigines are lazy
drunks"---A large proportion of the Aboriginal community are alcoholic
(relatively speaking). Does it make me racist to identify
this?
"Tasmanians are inbred and stupid"---There is some basis in fact
in the inbred part, both locally (places like Jackey's Marsh in the 70s)
and state-wide. There is relatively little migration to/from Tasmania,
leaving a relatively static population and 'gene
pool'.
Di:
Good because i have noticed tht
a lot of chinese have reading glasses. I didn't want to ask why without
seeming racist.
This sort of attitude shirks me to tears. If
you have an valid opinion/query/observation/theory, why should you be
afraid to express it? That is a truely racist society. I refuse to
contribute to the atmosphere of PC-ness. I think a good test to apply is
whether, if the situation were reversed, you would be mortally offended.
If I were to say that a lot more young people of today seem to be waring
glasses, would that be bad? Or that people are generlly taller today than
50 years ago? Does that make me agist? If not (and I don't think it does)
then your statement is not racist and you should be afraid to say
it.
|
| From: Cam
(Avatar) |
8/07/99
16:04:23
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22587
|
The reason a lot of Asian people
wear glasses is because they can see better than if they don't wear them.
A lot of caucasians (and other races) have vision problems, but a
good percentage of them wear contact lenses instead of
glasses.
It's difficult to make contact lenses for Asian people
(the lenses don't stay in place as well - something to do with cornea
shape and eyelid tension I think) so Asians who need eyesight correction
mostly wear specs.
I guess it's possible that genetic differences
may lead to differences in propensity to develop vision problems. Sounds
like an interesting area for an opthalmologist to do a
PhD.
|
| From: Susan |
8/07/99
16:26:00
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22600
|
Cam, I don't think you are
correct about the contact lenses. I lived for over 10 years in shared
accommodation and we always had at least one or two Japanese or Korean
students living there and I don't believe there was one who did not wear
glasses or contact lenses.
I once asked and was told that it had
to do with many many years of bad diet. I was also given this as the
reason for the smallness in height.
Susan
|
| From: Daryn Voss |
8/07/99
16:37:43
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22604
|
Terry, my sociology girlfriend of
some years back showed me a reference to a study that indicated that
alcoholism was only about 50% more prevalent among aboriginals than
caucasians. Alcoholic aboriginals tended to be more visibly alcoholic due
to high levels of homelessness, whereas many whites were "functioning"
alcoholics.
Okay, I don't have the reference, so I guess this is
even worse than anecdotal evidence. It may even be that the researcher
allowed personal bias to skew the statistics for all I know. I agree with
you that people shouldn't be afraid to state their beliefs or ask
questions. A scientific fact can't be racist.
This isn't pointed at
you, but my point is that sometimes everybody knows things that aren't
true. People (whether they are opposed to racism or supportive) tend to
remember things that support their ideas (like me! I remembered being
shown this study.)
Quite often there are historical reasons for
certain characteristics being ascribes to certain races, that have nothing
to do with the races actually possessing that characteristic. It certainly
benefitted slave traders for people to consider Africans stupid and
subhuman. Who does not know that the reason Jews are considered miserly is
that they were forbidden to hold property in many parts of Europe, and
hence were more or less forced (if they had any money and wanted to do
something with it) into money-lending? Often, these perceived traits vary
with the nation of the perceiver. What characteristics do you associate
with the Swedes? Clean? Socially advanced? Hihg tech? (Well, these are
things that spring to my mind.) Well, the Danes, I was surprised to
discover, consider the Swedes to be stupid, drunken oafs.
I think
the person who started this thread has shown pretty clearly (especially in
the lampooning of Jews) that he is not interested in enlightening others,
or himself, but is interested in inflaming hatred and suspicion. Should
this be illegal? Of course not. However, I have no qualms about making him
feel as uncomfortable and unwelcome as possible. Long before anyone ever
heard of "poltical correctness", racism was considered bad form in plite
society, largely due to Hitler, I suspect. Before people were talking
about PC, it was considered wrong to insult, intimidate and offend people
because of their race.
Society has always had standards. Fifty
years ago, you would be disgraced and despised for being homosexual.
Nowadays, you will be disgraced and despised for propagating
anti-homosexual ideas. I am glad to see a free and open discussion of
scientific and other ideas. I am also glad to make people who promote
hatred feel unwanted and unwelcome.
This is just my contribution. I
respect the views of all other serious posters, and offer these opinions
as a friend. 8^)
|
| From: helen |
8/07/99
17:23:02
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22611
|
can anyone tell
me why I should not be Racist as defined as higher or lower races because
all scientific evidence suggests to me i should be.
please
describe this "all scientific evidence" to which you refer. please also
specify the kind of information you are requesting: moral guidance,
scientific research, or just plain old personal opinion.
helen (the
unemotional)
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
9/07/99
3:44:23
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22739
|
Ooooooooooh, BABY! What a
CORKER!!! Where to begin... where indeed to begin...
Without going
overboard - I could write litereally REAMS on this subject if you wanted
me to, but as the original posting is so light on ANYTHING objective (like
anything more than the most cursory look at the FACTS) I'll simply make a
few observations.
Firstly, what is the link you proposing between
"race" and technological advancement?
Are such achievements to be
racially ascribed to the originators of the fundamental bases for such
technology? In this case it could well be argued that the human race
weren't goin' NOWHERE until someone thought of a practical means of doing
simple arithmetic... so therefore the Arabs are the most supreme of
"races". Are you saying that you are proud to be an Arab?
Maybe
this is being a bit harsh. Perhaps, the real achievements to be recognised
are to be of those who took these simple tools and greated wonderous
compound abstractions from them to create such astounding frameworks for
physical prediction as the theories of General Relativity, and Quantum
Electrodynamics (the two most successful theories of modern science)?
These two accomplishments can be credited mostly to two men, namely Albert
Einstein, and Richard Feynman, both of whom were Jews... so therefore the
Jews are the most supreme of "races". Are you saying you're proud to be a
Jew?
This is perhaps being a bit idealistic. Certainly neither
Albert Einstein nor Richard Feynman personally turned their miraculous
theories into real life wonders at the cutting edge of human technology.
Surely the pinacle of human achievement is at the edge of technological
advancement, a combination of an appreciation of the fundamentals, and the
ability to grasp the significance of advanced theories of physics, and the
skill to weave disciplines from all over the world into a technological
power house of achievement, and all this without domestic access to either
much land nor much resources. By such standards then surely the Japanese
win hands down. So are you saying you're proud to be
Japanese?
David... I'm confused... what is it exactly you're proud
to be again?
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
9/07/99
4:49:14
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22743
|
B.T.W. if anyone needs a
scientific basis for not being a racist a good place to start is "The
Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen J. Gould. Even I was astounded by the
complete non-existence of which to base any notions of racism or racisms
"PC" cousin racialism.
For my money, the definition of
racism is the formation of ANY OPINION WHATSOEVER about an individual
based only on their race. As Terry, I think, said, the problem is not in
identifying general differences between global populations, but in the
constraining of individuals to those generalisations.
Finally, I'd
like to ask a question... David, what right does anyone have to feel
good about themselves based on the achievements of individuals who bear NO
RELATION to them? If you've achieved things of your own, feel proud of
those achievements. If you haven't, no matter what the achievements of
other individuals of the same cultural extraction, it in no way diminishes
the fact that you are a loser!
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
9/07/99
5:42:23
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22747
|
Darren M is that
to say an Aboriginal Australian with less time spent on hunting will begin
over time to become inventive how long do you suppose this would take.
(legitimate Question)
Well, it took a BLOODY LONG
TIME for the Europeans to work out that the Earth was round and not at the
centre of the solar system even though this was common knowledge among the
Arabs, Polynesian, and the Chinese (just to name a few).
And
fire-stick farming developed by the Australian Aboriginals is the
result of a deep and intricate understanding of the ecological balance of
the Australian environment. Given that only 5% of Australia agriculture is
sustainable (i.e. not viable beyond the next few decades) who exactly is
it that you think has the inside track?
any
thoughts on race mixing.
I think it's a bloody marvelous
idea. Leaving aside the already well known hereditary problems of
in-breeding, it's perhaps useful to take a leaf from long term survival
strategies in the natural world. It is a well known ecological fact that
the most productive, adaptively flexible, and stable systems are those
with the greatest diversity. Systems of homogeneous individuals inevitably
and rapidly go extinct in the face of change, and the only certainty in
the Universe is change.
Historically, the most vibrant and robust
centres of economic wealth have also been those with the greatest
diversity where many cultures intersect not just in terms of trade, but
more importantly intellectually. There is nothing more intellectually
stagnant than a culture without the inspiration of diversity. The real
driving force behind the success of modern Europe is NOT its "pure genetic
stock" - genetically modern Europeans are a dogs breakfast of hereditary
influence from all over the world, both as a result of, and in turn
driving, global trade - but the result of the importation of culture and
ideas from Africa, the Middle East, Asia, and beyond.
You want to
see the results of so called "racial purity"? Take a look at the British
Royal Family sometime.
Without "race mixing" Europeans would still
be in the bog of the Dark Ages.
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
9/07/99
10:46:56
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22798
|
Yeah Sorry about that one Darren
M, I Was a bit tired, i'll expand on it ,
I was just asking if I have
any sientific basis to claim that, if in theory because i'm of a paticular
race,
and especialy where the gaps are so vast,like for example Aryan
and Aboriginal that I could claim that my Race was more inventive and
thoughtful, and therefore, if it in theory, had wanted too, could have
eliminated that race forementioned the Aboriginal, in the 1700's and could
have accomplished this with an invention called the gun, it's like the
spear but more advanced(I put that in there for all the people that would
send replys saying "The gun what an evil invention, and how could you be
proud of that, and the Aboriginals were such a peaceloving race,")and as a
consequence we would not know what an Aboriginal is right now.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
9/07/99
11:01:45
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22802
|
Thanks For the Reply Terry,
To
answer the first Question, I expect to recive all the replys I have
recived.
For the next I don't accept your answer that I should not be
racist just because, I may not be at the top of the food chain or the pile
or whatever, Because I can accept that life is a struggle and always will
be, and I can accept that I may not always be winning that struggle, but a
part of it nevertheless.
Oh and your right that Cohen guy is crazy,
nothing like that could be happening,
i'm sure.
Thanx love ya.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
9/07/99
11:26:42
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22808
|
HHHHmmmmmmmm Thanks for your
reply Dr smileyface with a beard,
no really i'd like to see all your
reams,
but before all the reams,
can you just show me all the reams
on how the northern scandinavian Races are the melting pot you speak
of,
and I can't remember saying i was proud of being anything.
so
i'll just discount all that, i'd say you just thought you heard me say
that because of your own insecurity's about the subject, but that's just
what (i'd say),so you can discount that,
and furthermore are you
suggesting that I should undertake a race-crossed relationship with say an
aboriginal, because ive got some stats that say I shoulden't,
I refer
too statment by Mr Greenspan "I know of know aboriginal people, in any
Australian gaol,
I know of plenty Halfcasts that are,
unfortunately".
And the reason they are in gaol is because they broke
the law the law that the English inplaced when they conquered the
country.
If ive missed anything, don't hesitate, to reply.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
9/07/99
12:22:30
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22819
|
Yes Trev Thax for the reply that
told me how to spell thax and i agree try to keep your personality down to
a minnium, otherwise you could confuse people.
Oh and Dr Ed G ...Man,
um i'd like to address your point that every community that prospered was
a certian absolute racial mixup party.
England from 1700 to 1920 is
there a problem here ^ ^
and bye the way I have looked at the English
Royal Family, the only problem being that they owned and controlled the
first World Empire, and done this with a country with few natural
products, originating from the soil of that country, yes I know they have
done it pretty hard,
but don't worry I'm starting a charity you see if
Every Man Woman and Child puts in one dollar a day, we could give almost
20mill every week to these downtrodden people.
thaxxxxx love ya
|
| From: steve(primus) |
9/07/99
14:01:47
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22848
|
If 18million people put in one
dollar a day, and you give $20million a week to the downtrodden, who gets
the other $106 million? or shouldn't I
ask......
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
9/07/99
20:23:45
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22942
|
England in the 1700 to 1920...
well, there was the forced immigration of many thousands from Africa...
there was the profound influence of India and China... and before that
England had been invaded by the Romans, French, Germans, etc.
I
guess there's a problem here because when I'm refering to "race" I'm just
using it as short-hand for culture, and it is impossible for two cultures
to interact without such mixing going on. If you want to talk about race
in biological terms, then I'm afraid you can't, because there is no
biological basis for any definition of race. It is simply not a concept
that can be defined scientifically, because it has no scientific meaning.
It is a social/cultural construct based just as much on language, food,
clothes, as any superficial physical traits such as skin colour (which
exist in a spectrum of variation, no in a discrete number of
type/races).
The fact of "race" mixing is the very reason that it
is not possible to define race. We can talk about gene frequencies for
different geographical populations... but at no time will such information
every allow us to dilineate one "race" from another because individuals
are not define by the gene frequencies of their group but their own
genome. Furthermore, the variation within a group is much much greater
than the variation of the average between groups. As a result it is quite
likely that John Howard has more genes in common with Mandawuy Yunipingu
than he does with Tim Fischer... and the categorisation of the two into
distinct biological groups ("races") becomes irrelevant.
Now, I'm
not trying to bury my head in the sand and say that at no point will one
culture be matrially better off than another... this is obviously untrue.
And it is true that the nature of ex-European culture relative to the
nature of Australian Aboriginal culture has meant the near extermination
of Australian Aboriginal culture in the 19th and 20th centuries. But SO
WHAT! It is also true that the nature of Roman culture to the rest of
European culture meant than it dominated Europe around the begining of the
modern era. And the Persians, had they wanted to probably could have done
the same. What is the point of observing that at a given time one culture
could have destroyed another? Where does it lead us. How does it add
ANYTHING to our lives? It certainly isn't a very good model for prediction
given that thus far all dominant cultures/empires eventually crumbled and
were replaced by something else.
Finally, are you seriously
suggsting that the British Royal Family has accumulated wealth by virtue
of their own competence??? Surely such accumulation has occured despite
their own competence... because they are a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. Much like
"race" which continues as an idea despite the complete lack of objective
justification... it just goes to show how sustaining a soil of ignorance
can be.
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
9/07/99
20:54:52
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22947
|
are you
suggesting that I should undertake a race-crossed relationship with say an
aboriginal, because ive got some stats that say I shoulden't, I refer too
statment by Mr Greenspan "I know of know aboriginal people, in any
Australian gaol, I know of plenty Halfcasts that are,
unfortunately"
Ummm, this is not a "stat", it's a dubious
anecdote!
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
9/07/99
21:05:25
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22951
|
The Highest
Military Tech Seems still to be coming from the Aryans in America and
Scandinavia , and Military Tech is always a good example of testing
technology race wise, because it is driven by the ultimate hiden
hand
I didn't know that those of Indian extraction were so
active in the military tech industry.
At any rate, you don't
suppose the fact that International Law prohibits Japan from having much
of a military establishment at all, has anyhing to do with the fact that
while it dominates all other areas of the high tech industry it doesn't
have a lot of a hand in military tech? Am I right also to assume that when
the Russians had the better fighter planes hey where the superior race at
the time? And of course a few thousand years ago the Egyptians were the
superior race ... this concept of superiority seems somewhat fluid and
variable doesn't it? Exactly what is the utility of such a notion again?
(other than for individuals with no achievements of their own to feel warm
and fuzzy about themselves)
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
9/07/99
23:03:18
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22964
|
Thank You Dr Ed G,
For your
enlightening Reply,
Just a few tiny little things though,
you've
left me a little confused, but lets start from the start,
Are you
suggesting that the immigration that was recived into England, in that
period of time was The real reason for the amazing leaps forward that that
country expirenced, them leaps including the Industrial Revolution, Wow ,
ring the papers!
Also i'm a little curious at the way you said that the
Royal Family are "racial purity" but didn't realy mean that, because that
can't exist, so what did you mean, cultural purity ok then
whatever,
and the next one I guess i'll leave for the Royalists, um..
so your saying that the royal family from king Henry on, have only just
been sitting there and not really in control at all,
I mean this is
big stuff Ed, who's really in control then?. Aliens. The Red Shield
Firm?.
You can answer that one.
And um the Aboriginal Statment Call
it what you like it's the truth, I'm not happy about it.
and I beleive
that the correct spelling for the Indian Variant is Arian, not
Aryan,
But yes I think the Indians are doing quite well,
I like to
think of them as the great independant.
I also love Indians just can't
help it.
next, Japan hmmmmmmm why do you think they can't have any
arms, I wonder, I also Wonder why Germany can't either,
and
furthermore on japan,hmmmmm how come japan is such an efficiant nation
now, when before the wars they were where?, and furthermore who intorduced
Modern Steel making to Japan.
wasn't the Dutch was
it.
|
| From: Alan |
9/07/99
23:57:46
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22967
|
Germany does have a large
military force and Japan has a "civil defence" quite the envy of many
asian countries. Part of the cease fire negotiations, layed down how these
forces could be used. This included these forces being deployed outside
their own borders. Germany was only invited to break this in the lead up
to North Korea.
Asd for modern steel making since the second would
war. I think you'll find it quite the opposite. Much of the practices /
techniques developed by the Japanese have been adopted by Germany, USA
etc.. Japan had (10 years ago) the highest capacity, using the highest
technology of all steel works. The USA had high capacity, low technology.
The Germans had meduim capicity & high technology. Australia low
capacity and technology, but this works to our advantage as we can more
easily produce small specialised runs.
PS. I had to summarise for
the World Iron Foundry Institute, the data on all steel mills around the
world, while on industrial training at BHP Newcastle, I still have a fear
that this data was used to close the Newcastle steel
works.
|
| From: steve(primus) |
10/07/99
1:17:46
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22974
|
Dr Ed, I'm with you all the way.
Those who claim superiority for their "race" because of the achievements
of others usually ignore the achievements of other cultures. Respect for
others' achievements should be pan-cultural. At least in the scientific
field (for the most part) study and research have no boundaries.
Richard Feynman told of the moment when he realised he knew
something no-one else did - it led to his Nobel Prize. On a smaller scale
most of the people in this forum would have had a similar experience
through work, study, sport or whatever.
Racism, from my
experience, is very much a learned activity - racist parents have racist
children. I was fortunate with my own parents. Attitudes can change,
however, and racism can be unlearned - so there is hope for a few people
yet.
Anyone who has been the subject of discrimination or hatred,
whether it is based on supposed racial differences, sex, sexual
preference, disability or whatever knows first hand how detestable and
often demoralising those attitudes can be. people should be judged as
individuals not by a sterotype.
|
| From: steve(primus) |
10/07/99
1:25:21
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
22976
|
Of course, judging people as
individuals rather than by stereotype doesn't apply to Collingwood
supporters :-)
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
10/07/99
3:03:40
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23012
|
Thank You Dr Ed
G,
Just a few tiny little things though, you've left me a little
confused, but lets start from the start, Are you suggesting that the
immigration that was recived into England, in that period of time was The
real reason for the amazing leaps forward that that country expirenced,
them heaps including the Industrial Revolution, Wow , ring the
papers!
Why does it have to be all or nothing? The
industrial revolution was a direct result of the intellectual products of
The Enlightenment, and The Enlightenment would not have have happened
without the diverse variety of intellectual influences from all over the
world converging in various centres throughout Europe. And simply at a
more nuts and bolts level if outside influences and CHANGE had not
occured, then the political climate of Europe would have remained feudal,
labour would have remained tied to the hereditary elite, and one of the
quintessential elements of the industrial revolution, the free movement of
labour, would not have existed, and therefore wouldn't have occured. And
without the material incentives of wealth production that the industrial
utilisation of a FREE labour foce provides, technological advancement
would have occured elsewhere.
Also i'm a little
curious at the way you said that the Royal Family are "racial purity" but
didn't realy mean that, because that can't exist, so what did you mean ...
um.. so your saying that the royal family from king Henry on, have only
just been sitting there and not really in control at all, I mean this is
big stuff Ed, who's really in control then?. Aliens. The Red Shield Firm?.
You can answer that one.
The House of Commons? There has
been a democratically elected government controlling Brittain and its
empire for quite some time now.
OK, perhaps I'm being a bit harsh
on the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family. I guess the point I'm trying to make is
that despite their claim to such "fine" hereditary stock, not to mention
their access to the best educational institutions of the world, they are
pehaps the most dizzyingly mediocre group of world figures of the modern
era. Not a brilliant one among them. Not even a vaguely exceptional one
among them.
I use them as an example of "racial purity" in its
colloquial sense, as that's the only sense that it rightly has. Even in
the last decade of the 20th century, commentators of the recent royal
wedding were commenting on how wonderful that Prince Edward would choose a
commoner to be his bride... people still think in outdated and discredited
mode of speech.
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
10/07/99
4:03:15
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23022
|
And um the
Aboriginal Statment Call it what you like it's the truth, I'm not happy
about it.
Well you haven't cited any objective evidence to
show such a truth, regardless how you feel about it. Or are you simply
asserting that you don't know any "pure bred" aboriginals who are in gaol.
If that's the case, so what? I don't know of any Zoroastrians who are in
gaol, but what does that prove?
But, I must confess that it's
largely irrelevant since you don't need to make any reference to
biological notions of race at all to explain if such a thing were true
anyway. I you give me 100 individuals who have been socially excluded from
any role in society, and I will GUARANTEE YOU that their incidence of
incarceration will be greater than the general population. The only
relevance for race here is when it is a means of social exclusion... and
the only relevant genetic parameter is that which controls melanocyte
activity.
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Terry Frankcombe
(Avatar) |
10/07/99
8:45:55
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23023
|
Mr Rokerfeller,
First,
allow me to repeat myself.
OK Allen, you've put
this statement up on a science forum. Is this a proposition, an
observation or an argued conclusion? What sort of response do you want
from it? My immediate, unemotional reaction is 'What a load of crap.' Are
you saying that you choose to measure race by invention? Why that measure?
Why do you feel a need to measure race in the first place? Where has the
'more invention makes a better race' value judgement implicit in your post
come from? It is certainly not in this phrase.
You seem to
have forgotten my first, third, fourth, fifth and sixth
questions.
For the next I don't accept your
answer that I should not be racist just because, I may not be at the top
of the food chain or the pile or whatever, Because I can accept that life
is a struggle and always will be, and I can accept that I may not always
be winning that struggle, but a part of it nevertheless.
So
you accept unjustified discrimination against you as just part of life's
struggle? Very valant of you. Would you not prefer removing that aspect of
the struggle to make things just that little bit easier for you? Still a
struggle, but a more just one.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
10/07/99
20:38:22
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23099
|
Dr Ed,
Thank you for your
excellent reply.
To answer our little Aboriginal Question
disagreement.
"--They are Perhaps the most dizzyingly mediocre group of
world figures of the modern era--".
"-well you haven't cited any
objective evidence to show such a truth regardless how you feel about
it-"
These two quotes of yours seem to answer themselves, I make my
Estimation based on good old common sense, I feel you base yours on The
Media , Woman's weekly, and various other like
sources.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
10/07/99
21:00:27
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23101
|
Oh
and bye the way this
Estimation if down the road proven true, Suggests to me that just on
observation, a racialy mixed individual of Aboriginal origin will be more
likely to end up breaking the law and ending up in gaol.
This could be
because of a number of Reasons.
It also suggests to me that an
Aboriginal of original "pure" Race probably will not,
this could be
because of a number of reasons,
perhaps because an original "Pure"
racialy Aboriginal individual would be participating in the activities
that his/her race has always participated in for 1000's of years, these
activity's mainly being Hunting for food and the likes, and this taking
place mainly in the Australian "Out back" and not in the citys where they
could be influenced by such things as Drugs, Alcohol, Ect.
Thank you.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
10/07/99
21:34:34
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23103
|
Allen Thank you for your
Reply,
Sir down at the World Iron Foundry Institute, did they have the
Book in their refference section called "History Of Steel In
Japan",
because in chapter four titled "Foreign Engineers' Contribution
To Japan's Steel Industry"
I'd like if I could too Quote Erwin Von
Baelz (1849-1927),
"Until less than 10 years ago, the Japanese people
lived in a cultre similar to ours.... in the Middle Ages under the feudal
system of knights, churches, monasteries and guilds.
Now, however, they
are quickly assimilating the achivements of the 19th century, in effect
leaping over the 500 and more years which our European culture took to
develop."
This was in a letter mailed to his wife in 1876.
And for
Germany I Disagree America has most of the Technology that originated from
Germany in relation to Arms and Defence.
This was stolen from them
after the second world war as a result of them being defeated, and thus in
practical sense tells me that this race civil war was won by the better of
that time.
but that's just a thought something i'm not sure
of.
Thanks heaps
Love to see Newcomer's love
ya.
|
| From: Alan |
10/07/99
22:05:50
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23105
|
David, please get your Alan's
right, I don't want to get confused with Allen and his comments.
Pre-second world war the Japanese did adopt the current steel
making processes of the time. But in the post WWII they have developed a
steel industry which is far in advance (in technology & capacity) of
the bulk of the rest of the world. Germany also has developed a high tech
approach, but a lower capacity.
As for the Americans, their steel
industry is still basically like ours, stuck in the pre WWII time warp. We
really did the Japanese and Germans a favour by bombing their steel works,
because they started from scratch. Our steel works and the Americans were
mostly built before WWII and can only be partially upgraded.
|
| From: steve(primus) |
11/07/99
0:03:25
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23117
|
David, you really have to do your
research properly and not rely on One nation and KKK stereotypes. Have you
had a look at Fanny Bay Gaol in Darwin? and all the other gaols in the
Northern territory? Most of the Aboriginal prisoners are what you would
call "full bloods". Your idea of "half castes" is not only abhorrent, it
is also ignorant.
Get away from your narrow minded, bigoted,
totally stuffed, Pauline Hanson view of the world and find out what is
going on in real life.
|
| From: Daryn Voss
(Avatar) |
11/07/99
0:05:49
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23118
|
In case someone doesn't get the
big gag...
David Rockefeller is chairman of the International
Advisory Committee of Chase Manhattan Bank, and holds other academic and
business posts.
Alan Greenspan is chairman of the US Federal
Reserve.
I don't know who Mr Cohen is, other than the fact that
Cohen is a common Jewish name.
I have been greatly amused by these
joke names, and I can only assume that the opinions issued under the
anonymity they provide have also been offered only as a
joke.
|
| From: steve(primus) |
11/07/99
0:12:45
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23121
|
daryn, I know that, you know
that. But our resident bigot cannot even spell his own name, Rockefeller,
correctly. Probably left school at 14 to marry the girl he got pregnant
and has worked as Second Swill Distributor at the local piggery since
then.
|
| From: Daryn Voss
(Avatar) |
11/07/99
0:29:51
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23124
|
Yeah, you've got to ask yourself
what is missing from this guys life. He asked for reasons against racism.
We have provided him with a stack of evidence against the idea that there
is one ethnic group that has been responsible for most of the
technological development throughout the millenia, and have given good
reasons why judging individuals by their ethnotype is not sensible. He's
not interested. He's got his fingers in his ears.
When someone comes
out with this supremacy nonsense on one hand, and all that stuff about the
banking conspiracy on the other, it sounds too much like those
semiliterate posters that get stuck up around town by guys with swastica
tattoos and two-blade hair.
He didn't think this up for
himself.
I'd say if you did a file comparison between these posts and
the Hitler youth fliers from 1935, they'd be pretty close.
What are
you after, DR? Does it seem like you've made a pack of friends and
recruits on this site?
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
11/07/99
3:40:31
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23149
|
Okay, you got me there. My call
on the British monarchy is an objective call on my behalf obviously
influenced by my mistaken conviction that people should be chosen for
leadership roles in society based on their talent and competence, not
their parentage. I would not be at all suprised that this has therefore
clouded my judgement on the calibre of their accomplishments. Guilty as
charged, and I would be happy to consider as openly as I possibly can the
exceptional achievements on the British Royal Family of the last century
if you could outline them to me. Otherwise I'm happy to admit that I am
indeed being perhaps a bit harsh and overzealous.
However, you have
STILL not cited any documentary evidence to suggest that Aboriginals of
mixed cultural parentage have a higher incarceration rate of Aboriginals
without mixed cultural parentage. Whatsmore, you have implied that NO
Aboriginals without mixed parentage are presently in gaol... I find this
VERY difficult to swallow, but will be more than happy to consider the
evidence if you would only present it. Furthermore, are you seriously
suggesting a link between the biological/genetic inheritance of either
mixed or non-mixed parentage Australian Aboriginals and their higher rate
of incarceration relative to the overall Australia average, or are you
simply saying that the incombatibility is purely
cultural/social?
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
p.s. not that
it's relevant to the arguments as they are presented (even if you went by
the name of Bugs Bunny I would still be happy to engage the debate), but
out of interest do you have the strength of your own convictions to
present them under your real name?
p.p.s. there are still some
questions in the "Economics please" thread that I'd binterested in your
response to.
|
| From: David Rokerfeller |
12/07/99
6:59:22
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23242
|
Daryn I'd just like to say on
behalf of,
Myself, Mr Cohen(the Lets say very strong minded), and Mr
Greenspan,
You are truly a Beautiful man.
and obviously very
intelligent.
I was just wondering how long it would take.
This
Thread is beautiful just read down it,
Oh and Steve I'm 15 at least,
i'm sure.
And the names were misspelled for a rather good reason. but I
will admit my spelling is down
right unacceptable at times.
Oh and
which one said, "What is this guy missing in his life", your sexist I
could be a girl.
and I thought that would be obvious, simply by the way
David always said "Love ya" and "Love",
I'm sure i'm obviously
psychologically in nead of love. ha ha ha , um can I Quote a song
(I'm
Human and I need to be loved, Just like anybody else does).
Hey
Daryn and you guys don't be too hard on me after all like Steve said, i'm
only 14 and there
was only three of me, sometimes it was hard to keep
up, because you guys just kept coming back,
(face hardens)
But in
the end Daryn, you are saying that you have proven that race dose not
exist in the terms
and context that I was using it in, therefore An
Aryan (and by the way did I once in this Thread
mention I was an Aryan
or of any affiliation to the the Aryan.."race"), (< I guess I'm going
have to
do that now.)) if taking what you say you have proven, here in
practical application, has no reason
to believe that there is any
difference existing whatsoever in his capability's to say have free
Idea's
or say govern a state,or in anyway in his culture whatsoever,
and seeing though this "Aryan" that I
speak of, isn't even allowed to
accept a difference in his ability to do this, then I suppose he
would
be very 14 year old like to think that he in any way has More
ability in this perspective,
because, Daryn in reality is this not
what this whole "race" debate is about(and keep objective).
because if
you agree with the above mentioned Question,
Sir with all of your
obviously superior Intelligence, and my obvious dullness, are you telling
me
that this is your unyielding stance.
because that is exactly the
difference that I like to make between Machines and
Animals,
Commonsense and cold hard steal like logic.
I Declare
myself Human, and unmoved in this Human reaction,
oh and was it you
that said I've accomplished lots of friends on this Thread(i'll assume
Sarcasm),
could you define a friend to me, because if it mean mutual
partner in leisure or study activities
then no that was obviously not
my aim on this thread, but in real life I have plenty thanks (and
by
the way not of the Two blade Hair type whatever the hell that is)but
am always open,(girls, wink
wink), and sorry but I did think this up by
my self,
and I'm a White Male Australian of 21 years and am of English
Decent with yellow eyes and jet
black hair(possibly Jewish in nature)
that is moussed and kinda spiked i'm about 73kg and 180cm
tall (is the
truth.)
(my interests include long walks on the beach, um flowers in
the evening)obviously laughing (if you know
what's good for you),
but seriously don't reply and say something like
gee what a waste of time, because you know why
not to say that, and Dr
Ed who's DR but ive had a look at that Economics Please and I think
he
Replied, also I think their is a reply on the Aliens in my sleep one
to, and finally HELEN in
response to your reply way up there, I'm
looking for a HUG.
thank you very much people and don't forget to
Reply if you have anything else, Daryn... your
thoughts. my e-mail
anyone Videoarial1939@hotmail.com(girls)I have photo's(joke)I hope
this
didn't go twice.
|
| From: BugsBunny |
12/07/99
17:05:33
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23332
|
Well well, where do i
start.
Firstly, I'd like to express my utter disappointment and
sadness,
at a one Mr Ed G (if that's your real name) in the abusive use
of my name.
As a cartoon and a rabbit I'm very disappointed to see my
name abused in such a flagrant manner, and all I have to say to you Mr Ed
is I'm sorry but my people have been speaking to your people and in turn
to my lawyers down at Warner Bros Inc., and you may be receiving a
call.
Normally, that is where I would leave such a dubious
issue,
but seeing I am on the "THREAD", if you will, I may as well have
an opinion.
As a rabbit, I feel that race awareness is vitally
important.(Although, being a cartoon confuses this a little.)
For
example, and this is a simplified example, if foxes were to only hunt
rabbits and rabbits only (excluding me being a cartoon), and furthermore,
if rabbits were exclusively hunted by only foxes, i could as a rabbit
appreciate that although the fox is my natural enemy, and wishes to do me
immediate harm, he or she helps me in an abstract way by killing the
slower and weaker rabbits.
Now you may say what practical relevance
has this rather simplified example got to do with the vast complexities of
human existence and to that i have one answer, THINK ABOUT
EVOLUTION.
Isn't your argument that you as a human evolved from
something less than you are now.
As a cartoon, you may not take my
advice, but you try having 100 ton weights dropped on your head on a daily
basis, that's right Ed, this business isn't all beer and skittles mate!
It's exactly like I said, a business, a struggle.
A struggle rather not
unlike life which is what I believe this so-called David is trying to
say.
Albeit in an abstract way.
Luv ya's
Bugs
xxxooo
P.S
Remember kiddies, don't watch the Disney Channel it's poisoning your mind.
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
12/07/99
20:18:43
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23377
|
So you're implying that human
races are competing in the same terms as, say, foxes and rabbits? The only
problem is that we are all the same species. Even more, if humans were
dogs, we'd all be the same BREED of dog.
You can't have
evolutionary selection between two groups unless there is a discernible
amount of variation between those groups. You can't select something
unless there is difference... ad there is simply not enough difference
between population groups. I used the term population group because, like
I said, since you cannot define race biologically it can have no
scientific meaning.
I'm not saying that evolutionary selection no
longer occurs. Not at all. But such selection is a selection of
individuals with certain genes or gene combinations, and as a result of
the manner in which variation exists in the global human population, it is
more likely that it will select between me and you (two "Aryans" [which is
another term which has no meaning outside racist literature or the
vernacular - there is no anthropological evidence to suggest that such a
category has an meaning or utility in an historical sense at all - it
describes little more than the fantasies of people like Adolf Hitler]),
than between Europeans and Australian Aboriginals.
Now that's not
to say that there has been no "competition" in the general sense between
Europeans and Australian Aboriginals, but you can't refer to it as an
evolutionary struggle because it does not involve the genes (except where
they provide a useful marker of delineating cultural divisions based on
melanin production)! The things that gave Europeans the upper hand against
the Australian Aboriginals was purely a fluke of history. The Europeans
advantage lay not in their genetic heritage but their historical heritage.
If aliens had so chosen, to come down and imposed the same historical
heritage on the Aborigines the situation could well had been the
reverse... just a millenium or two before the European invasion of
Australia, the Northern Europeans were little more than "primitive"
knuckle-dragging cannibals. Hell, if the Australian Aboriginals had simply
had closer ties to the Arabs the situation almost certainly would have
been a whole lot different.
To re-iterate a point that other people
have made, there is NOTHING special per se about the 20th century. Sure
the human race has achieved amazing things in the 20th century, but only
in comparison to the things that came before, no-one can sa how they will
stack up compared to things that come after! The "race" for supremecy is
not over... it will never be over. So to proclaim Europeans to be the most
supreme and gifted of the "races" because of their arguable dominance of
affairs in the latter half of the second millenium, is like rolling
identical marbles down a hill and declaring that the marble that passes
some arbitrary point down that hill is the most supreme marble of the
group, regardless of the fact that in all likelyhood a bit further down
the hill it will hit a rock and be overtaken by a completely different
marble. Furthermore, such a declaration of racial superiority is about as
useful as declaring marble superiority. It doesn't get you anywhere, and
aside from being of dubious validity, it DOESN'T ACHIEVE
ANYTHING!
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
p.s. even if we
were to use the analogy of the fox and the rabbit, in no sense could you
say that one was superior to the other... in NO SENSE. Just because one
eats theother is irrelevant. The only thing that matters in evolution is
reproduction, and it could well be argued that the rabbit is superior
since its numbers in the face of human industrialisation and modern
agriculture have far exceeded those of the fox. But who knows what will
happen when modern agriculture eventually crumbles due to
unsustainability, maybe the foxes numbers will again climb... who knows?
The point is you can't call the winner until the race is over, and in
evolution the race never ends (until ALL species are inevitably extinct,
that is)!
|
| From: Bugs Bunny |
12/07/99
21:26:53
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23386
|
Well Ed,
You've had another
shocker,
you've done what I've witnessed you doing countless
times.
And that is getting a little excited and absolutely assuming an
argument that is simply not there.
In fact, after most of your
meaningless drivvle,
you just agreed on principle with the basics of my
argument as a rabbit and cartoon.
So you are suggesting to me as a
rabbit that if we were all a breed of dog on the face of this planet that
we would all be the same breed (That's the type of point I was trying to
address earlier on).
And by the way, I don't remember you answering the
question that was posed originally in Darryn's direction.
Ed, this is
simple, there is 2% of humans living in this country that declare
themselves of some Aboriginal blood,
O.K, I want you to tell me how
many percentage wise of these people are incarcerated compared to any
other race in this country.
Now that's pretty simple.
I don't want
you to read anything else into this, but, what I wish for you to do is
just tell me if you think there is a higher percentage of these people
above mentioned, incarcerated.
Oh, and by the way, because I lack basic
intelligence I could not have thought up the word "Half-cast". In fact,
absolute fact, I learnt this word after listening to a "pure-blood"
Aboriginal gentleman speaking on a episode of ICAM.
luv ya
Bugs
xxxooo
|
| From: Kate |
12/07/99
22:02:09
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23390
|
"and I beleive that the correct
spelling for the Indian Variant is Arian, not
Aryan,"
No.
An Arian, is a person born between March 20
and April 20 of any given year :-).
The accepted spelling as a term of
eugenic definition is "Aryan" and predates Nazism.
If you want to be
pedantic, a 'swastika" isn't a 'swastika' its actually a "Hakenkroiz" and
again, predates Nazism, eg it has been found in artworks from ancient
Egypt.
These labels and images were convenient, albeit, pertinent
tools of German National Socialism, nothing more and nothing
less
(sorry, I just traced this thread back a few days and still
can't understand what is going on - but hey, its a thread about 'race'
which, by definition, makes it odd.)
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
12/07/99
23:26:48
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23394
|
Well Ed, You've
had another shocker, you've done what I've witnessed you doing countless
times. And that is getting a little excited and absolutely assuming an
argument that is simply not here.
Okay then, why don't you
enlighten me. What is your argument? What exactly are you saying? Maybe
it's me, but it has been an uphill battle trying to discern exactly what
it is you are actually trying to say.
Are you saying individuals of
Northern European extraction are genetically superior or culturally
superior? Are you saying that if you were to have isolated Northern Europe
from the rest of the world 2 millenia ago they would still be at te same
level of technological advance as they are today - or at least more
advanced than everyone else? Do you or do you not accept that the face of
the world today is overwhelmingly the result of history not
biology?
What IS you definition of race? You seem to imply in your
original post that there was a scientific argument for saying that the
"northern european race" was on the the top of the pile (whether or not
you said those words, that was the implication, and if that is not what
you intended then I'll be glad to hear what it WAS that you intended). If
you argument is based on science as you say then surely you must have a
scientific definition of race?
In fact, after most
of your meaningless drivvle,
Okay, this is starting to get
boring. If you truly do what to engage the debate at hand can we try and
avoid pie throwing? (difficult for a cartoon, I know)
you just agreed on principle with the basics of my argument as a
rabbit and cartoon. So you are suggesting to me as a rabbit that if we
were all a breed of dog on the face of this planet that we would all be
the same breed (That's the type of point I was trying to address earlier
on).
Okay, could you expand on that point then?
And by the way, I don't remember you answering the question that
was posed originally in Darryn's direction. Ed, this is simple, there is
2% of humans living in this country that declare themselves of some
Aboriginal blood, O.K, I want you to tell me how many percentage wise of
these people are incarcerated compared to any other race in this country.
Now that's pretty simple. I don't want you to read anything else into
this, but, what I wish for you to do is just tell me if you think there is
a higher percentage of these people above mentioned,
incarcerated.
Now, I'm confused. You said that you knew of
lots of individuals of mixed Aboriginal and European extraction in gaol,
but none of solely Aboriginal extraction in gaol. You did not mention the
rate of the broader Australia community. The implication was therefore
that there is something genetic which causes those of mixed parentage to
end up in gaol. That was the implication. Now, again, if this was not your
intention then you need to try and be more specific.
Okay, let me
address your new point, the disparity between the rates of incarceration
between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Australians. Yes, it is as I recall
something like ten times higher. But it has more to do with the fact that
the police are much much more likely to imprison an Aboriginal than a
non-Aboriginal FOR THE SAME OFFENCE, and more to do with the general
principle that if you culturally exclude someone from society, the only
option left to them is either to top themselves, or lash out at society.
This is not peculiar to Aboriginals. Exactly the same thing is happening
with Australia's youth, with identical consquences (astronomical rates of
both suicide and crime). Now unless you are going to expand your
definition of race to include teenagers as a separate race, the issue is
much broader than that of race.
Oh, and by the way,
because I lack basic intelligence I could not have thought up the word
"Half-cast". In fact, absolute fact, I learnt this word after listening to
a "pure-blood" Aboriginal gentleman speaking on a episode of
ICAM.
I don't care if it was Neville Bonner, it's misleading
to ascribe to this term anything other than cultural significance. In
terms of its implications for the basic human potential of an individual
it is an irrelevant concept.
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Daryn Voss
(Avatar) |
12/07/99
23:29:39
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23395
|
From what I can get from various
reference sources, the word Aryan is most often used with reference to the
Indo-European language family (which includes English, Welsh, German,
Italian, Russian, Farsi[Persian], Sinhalese, Greek, Latin, Sanskrit etc)
and to the Proto-Indo-European language from which these are
descended.
The Nazis and others have used the term as some kind of
racial grouping, ignoring the fact that languages do not spread like genes. I
would imagine it would be difficult to show that the Germans, Slavs, Sri
Lankans and Persians were somehow part of a racial group that excluded
Arabs, Jews and Magyars. (For that matter, the major "Jewish" language in
use in central Europe at the time of Hitler's rise was an Indo-European
language, indeed a Germanic language - Yiddish.)
The idea of race
seems to largely depend on the racist. It makes no sense to classify the
Jews as a race, since (a) they must have been in genetic contact with the
"gentiles" throughout the centuries (b) there have been different waves of
the spread of Judaism that mean there can't be any specially close
ancestral connection between certain groups, e.g the Sephardim in Iberia,
vs the Ashkenazim in Eastern Europe.
To get some online references
for more info, I did a search on Aryan. You will not be surprised that
most of the sites had titles like "World Wide White Might". One of them
listed the non-WASPs in Clinton's cabinet (yes, including the Defence
minister, Mr Cohen). Although the Nazis didn't invent the word, or even
its usage in a racial context, they brought it into such disrepute that
one doesn't hear it any more except when used by White-Supremacists, or in
reference thereto.
I only have two "paper" references on language
families, but both of them call ours the Indo-European
family.
Nonetheless, here is the entry from the online Columbia
Encyclopedia
Aryan
[Sanskrit,=noble], term formerly used
to designate the Indo-European race or language family or its Indo-Iranian
subgroup. Originally a group of nomadic tribes, the Aryans were part of a
great migratory movement that spread in successive waves from S Russia and
Turkistan during the 2d millennium B.C. Throughout Mesopotamia and Asia
Minor, literate urban centers fell to their warrior bands. Archaeological
evidence corroborates the text of the Veda by placing the invasion of
India by the Aryans at c.1500 B.C. They colonized the Punjab region of NW
India and absorbed much of the indigenous culture. The resulting
Indo-Aryan period saw the flourishing of a pastoral-agricultural economy
that utilized bronze objects and horse-drawn chariots. Before the
discovery of the Indus valley sites in the 1920s, Hindu culture had been
attributed solely to the Aryan invaders. The idealization of conquest
pictured in the Vedic hymns was incorporated into Nazi racist literature,
in which German descent was supposedly traced back to Aryan
forebears.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The
Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition Copyright ©1993, Columbia University
Press. Licensed from Inso Corporation. All rights
reserved.
|
| From: tatey |
13/07/99
1:02:03
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23399
|
the original proposition you put
goes something like: since europeans have invented lots of cool stuff in
the last few hundred years (an instant in time in the whole of human
history, let alone in evolutionary history) therefore europeans are a
whole lot smarter than everyone else.
But ask yourself this: if
no-one ever told you the world was round, would you have been smart enough
to work it out completely on your own with no education at all ?
the
answer is no, unless you were extraordinary.
every generation stands on
the shoulders (knowledge wise) of the previous generation. In modern
education the sum of the knowledge of a relatively few smart people from
preceding generations is the STARTING POINT of the current generation's
understanding. It took a brilliant guy like Einstein to first understand
relativity and prove it mathematically but nearly anyone in the world
could understand it if you took the time to teach them.
The
application of the scientific method developed in europe due to the
availability of time and resources to pursue it. The rest is just a
cascading, exponential result. GET OVER IT.
Just because there were
some smart white people around with enough leisure time to think some
things through doesn't mean white people are smarter or superior.
Even assuming this is false, does intelligence = superiority? -
how many white heavyweight boxers or 100m sprinters are in the top 100 in
the world ?
And if intelligence does equal superiority, just
because some white people are smart (educated), doesn't mean YOU are
inherently smarter
ask yourself: does the idea that people who look
like you, are better than people who don't look like you, make you happy ?
and why ?
maybe it's just human nature, like feeling good when the
football team you barrack for wins, even though you can't play football to
save your life.
the thing is: football is interesting, racism is
just a waste of time
|
| From: BugsBunny |
13/07/99
3:26:28
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23407
|
Hmmmm Your Right ED (Mr god like
sparkling teeth like person), (I'm new you see and I wasn't aware I was
speaking with gods or something higher something like a ...Avatar sorry
that's my lissp)this is getting rather,
plain. (I really can't keep up
anymore), (but don't worry I note my victories), (I can see them)
I
guess matey what the resident Racist, as has been implied, (no actually
National Socialist has been implyed),(hey),was saying .
was something
like this ,ok guys I've come your way rather a lot, all I want you to do
is, accept that "Struggle" makes us as humans (no races see), stronger ok,
will we accept this much or do our resident god like individual's have
some piece of history and evidence to totally displace, this rather normal
human statement, because if as a (Avatwr) you do please show it ,I would
like you to show me where absolute or partial stagnation on a cultural
basis leads to advancement.
Oh and ED as a God I just don't think your
cutting it, I mean you've got a reputation to live up here.
(If I'd
have known I was in the presence, I mean why didn't anyone say anything,
I'm rather embarrassed by the whole thing.)
hey wait up, You didn't
answer my Question Ed, (I know I'm dull (in the presence of an Avatwr) but
not quite there>< yet)
you dodged around it, and a few others I
might add, Hey!
will I repeat, the percentage of the two(2%) of
Aboriginal individuals incarcerated as against the percentage of any other
"####" in this country. you can answer.... Now. (and hurry up because that
percentage of people that call themselves Aboriginal is rising, by the
minute, (fringe benefits I think).
and , bye the way have we, had
a change of heart (Mr Racist Ed) (I shall be advertising this fact that as
a Avarwr, you are also a Racist), as I'll now address you, because if you
read back a bit, no alot, you shall find certain comments that you made
about "head" and "sand" and head in sand,( and I do not believe you were
addressing a holiday.),
And Further more I had no idea that I was
speaking to God like individuals, well it's personal now, get your books
out boys because if you would like to step outside, outside this Thread
that is, and into Economics Please, we'll see how a mere mortal stacks up,
(whack) I believe that was the sound of a glove slapping a face.
sounds
like a challenge.
Oh and while I'm dribbling, I believe some one
brought into this conversation Politics, and One Nation, well you see it
was bound to happen, but I have the tinniest to do with politics so in
answer to your answer, could you show me One time or indeed one policy in
this "One Nation" Party's history that shows them to be a Racist party
(anytime), I'm waiting, also (and i've looked into it) (a bit), I believe
that their official policy on this issue is "to treat all Australians
equally ",
"As One Nation and not based on race or colour."
I
believe this was taken to be "Racist" because treating an Aboriginal any
different on the basis of race, to a for an example an Englishman , as the
current government does and continues to do today, would have been under
threat in this above mentioned Equal phrase,
(any arguments here I
thought not, so whoever you where (and I couldn't be bothered looking) go
and get a frontal lobotomy and do the Gene pool a favour. )
Thank
you.
P.S. Did I Mention at the top Unemotional(we could have saved
some space), no I didn't a said inemotional which is a word I made up for
the purposes of me looking like a total dick.(and It worked) No comments
on this thanks,
bye love ya.
|
| From: Dr. Ed G
(Avatar) |
13/07/99
4:02:56
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23408
|
ok guys I've come
your way rather a lot, all I want you to do is, accept that "Struggle"
makes us as humans (no races see), stronger ok, will we accept this much
or do our resident god like individual's have some piece of history and
evidence to totally displace, this rather normal human
statement.
No, I have no problem accepting the truth of this
at all. In fact it is a philosophy adhered to by Einstein which he
referred to as the "Philosophy of the Pigsty". We are definitely in
agreement here.
but of know the there quite not
Avatwr) an presence (in dull I?m (I Ed, Question my answer didn?t You up,
wait hey )>< yet) you dodged around it, and a few others I might add,
Hey! will I repeat, the percentage of the two(2%) of Aboriginal
individuals incarcerated as against the percentage of any other "####" in
this country. you can answer.... Now.
I'm sorry for my lack
of clarity, I'll try a third time. I don't have the exact figures but I am
lead to understand that the number of aboriginals in gaol at the present
time is a much greater proportion of their total population than the
average for the entire Australian population. I think we are in agreement
on these statistics. This, however, was not your original assertion which
was that there were no "pure blood" aboriginals in gaol, only "mixed
blood".
At any rate it doesn't prove anything other than there is a
lot of work that Australians as a nation need to do to achieve universal
justice, equality of opportunity, and reconcilliation. Yes?
and , bye the way have we, had a change of heart (Mr Racist Ed)
(I shall be advertising this fact that as a Avarwr, you are also a
Racist), as I'll now address you, because if you read back a bit, no alot,
you shall find certain comments that you made about "head" and "sand" and
head in sand,( and I do not believe you were addressing a holiday.)
Please elucidate because I'm not sure I understand the
accusation.
Oh and while I'm
dribbling,...
You said it, not me :-)
I believe some one brought into this conversation Politics, and
One Nation, well you see it was bound to happen, but I have the tinniest
to do with politics so in answer to your answer, could you show me One
time or indeed one policy in this "One Nation" Party's history that shows
them to be a Racist party (anytime), I'm waiting, also (and i've looked
into it) (a bit), I believe that their official policy on this issue is
"to treat all Australians equally ",
"As One Nation and not based on
race or colour."
Well, it wasn't me that mentioned One
Notion, so I'll leave that to someone else if they can be bothered (simple
incompetence is all I need to ignore One Notion).
(any arguments here I thought not, so whoever you where (and I
couldn't be bothered looking) go and get a frontal lobotomy and do the
Gene pool a favour. )
Okay, anyone whose been following
this thread will be happy to hear that I'm officially bored, and it's
obvious you're not up to having a discussion without resorting to name
calling. As my father often says, "There's no point in having a battle of
wits with an unarmed opponent.", and I think your behaviour has made my
point more eloquently and convincingly than I ever could, so I offer you
the last word, because I have nothing more to say. You can consider this a
victory for you and your cause if you want to - I really don't care,
because (and I've been wanting to say this for the entire thread but held
back in the hope that it might evolve into a constructive debate) you're a
dope!
Soupie twist,
Ed G.
|
| From: Daryn Voss
(Avatar) |
13/07/99
4:06:01
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23409
|
This is just part of my
continuing irregular contribution to this thread.
There are some
Australians who regard the Native Title legislation as racist, since they
believe it favours aboriginals over others. In fact, any groups who can
make native title applications must be made up of people who can show an
ancestral connection with the land (unextinguished by various other
titles), and whose ancestors were robbed of the land by a spurious
declaration of terra nulius. As it happens, the only such victims in
Australian history were aboriginal. The fact that only one ethnic group
has been victim of a certain crime doesn't mean that the acts of
restitution for that crime are racist: only the crimes themselves
were.
Bugs, you have defended PHONP. I'm not going to argue about
the morals or common sense of this group. The biggest problem of One
Nation is not that they are politically incorrect, but that so many of
their public ideas are factually incorrect. PH will appear on a
current affairs show to complain about single mum's pumping out babies for
money. In fact sole parent families have fewer children, on average, than
dual parent families. She will talk about Australia being swamped by
Asians, and will produce statistics that don't correlate with those
produced by the ABS or anyone else (In fact, Asians and their descendants
make up about 4% of Aust population. Asians make up about 31% of
immigrants. A friend of mine from Canada [a country that enjoys a mixed
ethnic base these days] visited recently, and his most common comment was,
"I can't believe how white Australia is.").
I don't think I need to
go on. What, simply, is the issue Bugs? I feel that perhaps I shouldn't
respond to your strange comments. I suspect that you aren't interested,
and anyway, this is a science site. You had a science question. We
have all responded to it adequately, fully, copiously. Do you have any
other science questions or postulates?
Please feel free to continue
your current behaviour: it is an open forum. I just think that perhaps you
are wasting your time. Because you chose a science site, you have
encountered people who tend to think about things before making up their
minds. Logging on under the names of those you suspect to be conspirators
(I'm not sure how Bugs fits in) and bombarding us with a weird combination
of early 1930s propaganda, 1990s New Right pseudoscience, doubtful
anecdotes and unfounded theories, has met with a reasoned rebuttal. There
are places where doing what you have done would get you a big hip-hurrah,
instead. I humbly and politely suggest you seek them
out.
|
| From: Entruchio |
13/07/99
9:04:44
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23416
|
I've been watcing this debate
since it started and have been extremely hesitant to join
in.
David, I thoroughly recommend that you quit you job or school
or whatever it is you do and travel overseas for an extended period. You
will learn very quickly that all people are different and each and every
person on this planet has something (no matter how minor it may appear to
others ) to contribute in life.
Each person deserves respect on the
basis that they exist not how they exist.
I tell you, travel. When
you're sitting on bus roof in Nepal with shit running down your legs due
to eating local food, You won't feel so superior. Learn some humility and
accept that knowledge is knowledge no matter where it comes from.Whether
it be planting rice or quantum physics.
Life is too short to waste
time on thinking that someone isn't as good as you. All your'e really
doing is cutting off people who could become your friends and could teach
you something new.
Entruchio
Marchbar
|
| From: Tim H (Numpty) |
13/07/99
9:39:10
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23418
|
Bugs,
I'm a little slow
(must be my german/irish background :-) so you'll have to forgive me if i
don't catch on straight away.
I believe the point you are trying
to make is that 2% of the australian population claim to be of
aboriginal decent, and yet they account for a dissproportionate amount of
the population of our prisons.
No one seems to have the exact
figures, but we all seem to be in agreeance of this.
Now earlier on
you stated that there were no persons of "pure" aboriginal decent in our
prisons and in fact they were all of "mixed race". I think they were the
terms you used. I have no doubt that you will correct me if I am
wrong.
Now, if there are no persons of aboriginal decent in jail,
the only way you can claim a dissproportionate amount of prisoners are
aboriginal is be including these "mixed race" prisoners in the count for
"pure" aboriginals. They could be just as easily included with the "aryan"
prisoners, after all, they are just as much "aryan" as they are
"aboriginal".
You can't have it both ways Bugs. Pick which way you
want to manipulate you statistics and stick to it. You loose credability
real fu#@^ng fast otherwise.
Oh, and by the way. Stop hiding behind
cartoon charcters and hotmail addresses and have enough courage of
conviction to put your name to your opinions. Before you ask, my name is
Tim Hinspeter. I live in Townsville, NQ. I'm in the book. Look me up
sometime. Perhaps we could discuss this at length we a few of my mates
:-)
Kind Regards,
Tim H
(Numpty)
|
| From: Chris
(Avatar) |
13/07/99
10:37:30
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23432
|
Some thoughts:
There
is no point using reason to try to persuade or argue with a person who has
a passionate belief.
Eds, I (and I'm sure
others) see your points. They are a compelling (if probably wasted)
argument. However Mr 1000 names will not see them because they contradict
his entrenched world view.
For the person who
started this thread, some observations based on the purile drivel
you have seen fit to regurgitate in this forum :
You can't
spell.
Your grammar is atrocious.
You are incapable of constructing
a flowing argument.
You don't / can't listen.
You don't evince any
powers of logical reasoning.
You have no concept of credible
evidence.
Hence, your argument is ill-founded and
unsupported.
In short, you are a poor example for a supposed
"master race". You are the example which contradicts your own
argument. In a science forum such as this I am surprised your
"submissions" receive any attention at all - they are quite simply not up
to scratch.
It is fortunate that your "ideas" are not intelligent
or persuasive enough to be really
dangerous.
Chris
|
| From: Dr Paul |
13/07/99
13:39:17
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23463
|
Hi all,
I have just looked at
this thread, thinking it was another human dillemma question. Lo and
behold a you beaut fight over differences of views.
For the
original question, and for the racist point through the thread, the point
about not being racist is the development of tolerance and understanding
for all, this being based on an individual status, not as part of some
grouping. You appear to have some view that one race has displayed an
advanced status due to the developments they have "acheived". If this is
the Caucasian grouping then there are many examples that can be shown that
show that racism in this grouping has led to a stagnation in the social
development in the section of this human grouping that hold such "racist"
or "culturalist" views. The Dark Ages of the early second millenium to the
1600's or so ( I did geography at High school, not history, so my dates
may be out) was one of religious and somewhat racial persecution. HOW FAST
DID THE CAUCASIAN SOCIETY ADVANCE DURING THIS TIME? (sorry for shouting)
Some of the worlds best thinkers were told not to think open thoughts,
Gallilleo (exact spelling?, can never get that quite right) told of
experiments and observations that the earth was not at the centre of the
universe. The racist and sectarianist political leaders of the time took
him to task, calling him anathema until he renounced his "views" . During
this time, the Moors (Muslims) the Asian populations had wars, but they
had more widespread tolerance, and advanced scientifically and culturally
in comparison to Caucasian Europe. I would be interested to read some
Asian and Muslim history of science to observe the development of optics,
astronomy, geography, physics, chemistry,...
Acheivement in the
human species as a whole is acheived through the development and sharing
of ideas based on we as individuals living in a common society. This
sharing is based on tolerance for others as individuals.
For those
of the forum who have chosen to hate the racists, a little shame. We come
to this forum to ask questions and to learn. I agree, their views are not
the same as mine, maybe not the same as each of our own. But do we have
the right to force our views on others? Yes, they might have views which
are not assistive to the advancement of society as a whole. It should be
our role to discuss the pro's and con's of our views and their's to see if
we can learn from each other. Dr Ed, I agree, your patience is great. This
forum is somewhat anonymous in terms that we know not of the skin colour/
facial features/ hair colour/ body shape/ clothing patterns (whatever) of
each participant. In this way the forum is a thing of equality, we all
come here to ask questions and to give ideas, knowledge and to learn from
the ideas and knowledge of others.
David, you may not receive great
scientific knowledge on whether to be racist or not. What you should
receive is knowledge over the benefits of understanding of all people,
regardless of age, sex, skin colour, religion, attitude. When you realise
that people differ in appearance and attitude and understanding and
knowledge, but when you talk to them they are like you, Human, race,
religion, whatever has little meaning. Understanding and tolerance lead to
advancement, not some racial ability.
What was it Terry started to
quote; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It is like
saying if you judge a discriminating person, are you not showing
discrimination in yourself.
Dave, Alan (I hope I got the right Alan),
Bugs, you may have a right to be racist through a free idea. However, you
will likely not advance as a human until you can be willing to learn from
the experiences and views of other humans regardless of who they are or
where they come from. It is more that they are an individual,
withknowledge, views and experiences different from yourself(ves) and
through the sharing of experiences and ideas on an equal basis, barriers
to knowledge, understanding, human rights are broken down.
As for
me, a 9th generation (Anglo heritage) Australian, my wife is a mix of
Eastern Europe, English and Australian heritage. We are both Australian
and we share life equally. We can argue points of difference, but we learn
from the differences between us.
Is this a relevant question for
the Self Service Science Forum, why not? This question broadens or views
and knowledge due to the input of all. This may not be physical science,
but an advancement of sociology and anthropology, sufficiently relevant to
a non discriminating Science
Forum.
Paul
|
| From: Kate |
13/07/99
14:10:06
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23467
|
Dr Paul,
In a forum such as
this, the means of expression , as much as the ideas themselves, is
important. Anonymity can tempt individuals to be rather doctrinaire,
bombastic or just dismissive in relation to other's ideas.
I took
offence to the disregard and lacklustre effort of the BugsBunny person/s.
He/they received well thought out responses and reacted like a child. I
don't claim to be dispassionate or even particularly tolerant - I'm not so
optimistic to believe that as an emotional creature I can always be
perfect. However, a little distance and perspective is usually possible
and desirable. However it seems that the Bugs person/s was unable to even
consider any reaction other than that of personal attacks on Dr Ed for
one.
It didn't contribute to the forum in a proactive and/or
constructive manner and as a historian I'm all for a socio-historical
perspective on the human endeavour of science.
Call me doctrinaire
- its probably true. But unfortunately I just don't like some people based
purely upon their behaviour, not their heritage or
ideas.
|
| From: Tim H (Numpty) |
13/07/99
14:39:05
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23473
|
What is a "Science-type-person"
Kate? I was going to say I do not work in any field of science, but in
retrospect, we all work with science in one way or another every day.
[Cue: trumpet volantary]
I love to learn about the world we
live in and this forum give us all the opportunity to do that. It is truly
a good thing when people from such differing walks of life can come
together to discuss matters such as these.
Dr Paul, you are
correct. It is not our place to make judgements on the opinions of others
that are expressed here. We all have a right, nay, a duty to express our
ideas and opinions in order to advance our race even further. We learn
from our triumphs and failures, and , through the experience of others.
Those who's opinions differ from our own, enable us to gain an insight we
would otherwise not have had. I am grateful for the wide variety of
sentiments expressed here. What a boring world it would be without such a
melting pot of ideas.
[Steps down from pulpit and continues normal
existance]
That said, I have no tolerance for those people who wish
to persecute others on the basis of race, culture, sex or age. I will
fight for their right to hold those views, but loose all benevolence when
they refuse to accept the logical arguments that have been put to them and
continue to expound upon the benifits of racism as a way of life. Learn
from the experiences and knwoledge of others, or present a logical
argument as to why they are incorrect, or SHUT
UP.
|
| From: Kate |
13/07/99
14:44:04
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23475
|
Err, I'm not a particularly
science-type-person. Well not in the strict, man in the street sense
anyway. Not that that matters, unless I wanted to gain a scholarship at a
university or undertake a PhD in which case, study in the traditional
sciences would greatly enhance my chances of success on both counts.
(being a man would help too - but lets not go
there).
|
| From: DigitalRadio1918 |
13/07/99
22:46:53
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
23578
|
CAN EVERYBODY PLEASE READ DR
PAUL'S REPLY
This is the stuff that downright Honourable people are
made of.
Dr Paul this is the Reply that I rather enjoyed reading,
in the main because it was one thing,
OBJECTIVE, and perhaps that is
what this person was trying to receive, or find
and perhaps he done
this,
Psychologically by trying to annoy the other Scientists(possibly
because he has an opinion that
scientists can not be this) ,and while
doing so.
he's proved to me how quickly a debate can lose all
Objectivity, especially when Emotion is
brought into it and Assumption
also.
Dr Paul, you are the man I am looking for (also perhaps Daryn
Voss too) so could you two
gentleman please go to the Thread "Economics
please” and have an Objective look at this.
MISSION
ACCOMPLISHED.
Ignore the first Question's hastiness on that Thread.(I
hope we've all learnt something.)
I’m going to post this twice because
I’m selfish.
Thank you,
luv ya.
DigitalRadio1918 also Known
as (David Rokerfeller, Mr Cohen, Bugs Bunny (that was forced on me),
Allen
Greenspan, Oh and Kent Lindsay Thopmson Evans, Artist / Politics
/ Information Tech.
|
| From: Manfred |
22/07/99
12:54:00
|
| Subject: re: Race and
Racism |
post id:
25559
|
It is an animal instinct so we
have it too. The nice thing about humans we can learn to live with it and
ignore it and get on with nicer things.
:)
|
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