From: josh 17/06/99 12:35:39 Subject: languages post id: 18282 Why is it that most people from other countires can speak perfect english, eg asians, germans, dutch etc. But when we try and speak it we can not speak it properly, we don't say it right or make the right sounds for the letters. Has it to do with the fact English to speak is not that hard, and it is not a complicated language to others. Or is it the way our voive boxes are developed? From: Rene 17/06/99 12:44:23 Subject: re: languages post id: 18287 Well, mabye it's to do with the fact that when americans go overseas, they give large tips (in American Dollars, which are wirth heaps)to people who can beg and crawl to them in English. There is therefore a strong motivation of people visited by Americans, -and to a lesser degree English people and Australians- to learn english. As well as this, England has colinised many countries all over the world. They went into India, had a go at China (managing to get Hong Kong for a while). It is no wonder that English is so widespread now with all the british colonies. From: salirian 17/06/99 13:11:58 Subject: re: languages post id: 18306 as far as i know, its all a matter of hnow much effort you put in, and how much you practise. people who speak english often expect other people to be able to speak it, and so don't bother trying to learn any other languages flawlessly. From: Emma 17/06/99 13:16:04 Subject: re: languages post id: 18310 Television! Everything is from America and in English! Dutch kids grow up watching cartoons in English. From: Alan 17/06/99 18:56:13 Subject: re: languages post id: 18426 In many non english speaking countries, english is taught as a second language, from a young age. The closest many of us ever got to learning a second language was compulsory french classes in year 7 (at many schools). This is why so many of them speak such good english. At one stage I went out with a girl from the former East Germany. At school they were taught russian It's also advantageous being able to watch so many movies in english and meeting up with so many english speaking tourist. English really has become the universal language around the globe. However I don't know how I will get on in North Korea in a few weeks time. From: Chris W (Plebeian) 17/06/99 18:59:59 Subject: re: languages post id: 18427 It's also substantially easier to get practice speaking any foreign tongue when you live in Europe rather than an English speaking island-nation like Oz. From: Daryn Voss 18/06/99 0:07:35 Subject: re: languages post id: 18447 Hello there. English speaking people often get the impression that everyone else in the world speaks English, because the people they tend to encounter overseas are generally people in the service industries whose livelihood is influenced by this ability. The Anglophones rarely venture into the ricefields of Laos or the coffee plantations of Nigeria. I have some figures that I have just pinched from Encarta. "The 12 most widely spoken languages, with approximate numbers of native speakers, are as follows: Mandarin Chinese, 836 million; Hindi, 333 million; Spanish, 332 million; English, 322 million; Bengali, 189 million; Arabic, 186 million; Russian, 170 million; Portuguese, 170 million; Japanese, 125 million; German, 98 million; French, 72 million; Malay, 50 million. If second-language speakers are included in these figures, English is the second most widely spoken language, with 418 million speakers." This means that even if those who speak English as a second language are included, less than 8% of the world's population speak English at all. Encarta also notes: "In fact, some scholars believe that perhaps 90 percent of the languages spoken in the 1990s will be extinct or doomed to extinction by the end of the 21st century." I hope this info is of interest. 8^) From: Alan 18/06/99 0:52:35 Subject: re: languages post id: 18461 My understanding is that mandarin should really be classed as a group of languages, because of the extreme variety of dialects, associated with different regions in China. Its really like classifying almost all the european languages as one (ie the one which they are mostly based upon). Just as an aside the characters in mandarin and cantonese are the same. Thus any literate person person in China can read the writen word, irrespective of their language / dialect. But I do agree with you that english speakers including myself, assume everyone speaks english. I've had to do lots of diagrams for the technicians I've been training. The best understood term I've come across is "OK", it seems to be universally accepted. Hello is close behind. Oh the worst speakers of english, I've come across are in England. From: steve (primus) 18/06/99 1:09:48 Subject: re: languages post id: 18466 English has become the universal language, despite great opposition from the French. Dialectal variation in English means that while the written language is universally understood (by those who can read) the spoken language is often mutually unintelligible to those who claim a spoken knowledge of the language. From: Craig Abbott 18/06/99 1:13:55 Subject: re: languages post id: 18468 My 2c Actually the chinese language is becoming more complex.... There are many chinese dialects of which Madarin appeasr to be the most common, and until recently, only one actual written language. One point to understand is that in many canses the written sentence structure is often different from the spoken sentence structre. All the chinese would read the same sentence and understand it, and all would say it pretty much the same way (but with differetly sounding "words" due to dialects) Over the last decades, however, many Cantonese writers have moved away from this idea of differing structure for the spoken and writen word. That is, they started to write and speak using the same sentence structure. This meant taht some chinese (who dodn't speak Cantonese) could no longer read Cantonese chinese. In this way, Cantonese separaated itself as a different language form "Mainland" Cantonese. Keep in mind that Cantonese is (or was until 1997) the language of Hong Kong and that Mandarin was the language of the mainlanders (treated by the Hong Kong citizens as Country Bumpkins) To comlicate matters, the chinese government has now introduced and is teaching "Simplified Chinese" characters. As you'd expect, the Cantonese speakers in hong Kong see this as something only necessary for the lower classed, stupid, agricultural mainlanders. (The Honky's I meet tend to be VERY classist and racist...) So, there is now Mandarin with the simplified chinese characters and Cantonese with the traditional chinese characters and eventually, the 2 groups will appear to be distinct asian languages. From: Daryn Voss 18/06/99 1:15:12 Subject: re: languages post id: 18469 Yes, different texts do seem to split up languages differently. It seems to be due to the wobbly yardstick of mutual intelligibilty. For instance, I have read that there is a greater level of mutual intelligibility between Norwegian and Swedish that there is between Bavarian German and Northern German. S and N are known as separate languages because of separate national identity, while the various dialects known as variations of standard German are so known for reasons of common national identity. I'm just guessing, but I would imagine the level of understanding between an "English" speaking dude from the Orkneys and an "English speaking dude from Jamaica would be quite rickety, were it not for the fact that both would probably be familiar with North American English. (I suppose I'm pretty safe in guessing this, unless someone is going to arrange the experiment at this time of night.) 8^) From: Dr. Ed G (Avatar) 18/06/99 1:25:39 Subject: re: languages post id: 18472 It's the golden rule - "Thems with the gold, makes the rules" Whatever the dominant language of trade is will be the dominant language of international communication. The emergence of the USA as the principle economic force in the world means that the principle language of trade is therefore English. I've heard other arguments about English speakers being the least resistant to misuse or change of their language (in contrast, perhaps, to the French), and the claim that even if you completely botch it up you can usually at least be understood. But I reckon these are just arguments designed to make English speakers feel good about themselves, and less guilty about the fact that English is wiping out other languages left, right, and centre... in the end I think is simply comes down to hard cash! Soupie twist, Ed G. From: Daryn Voss 18/06/99 1:40:25 Subject: re: languages post id: 18477 I suppose that <8% who speak any English (that I mentioned a couple of posts back) would probably be in possession >92% of the dollars, if I did the calculating. English is a beautiful, complex and interesting language, but that is partly because it is a total f**kup. (I read in a weekend Australian that English is rather like a pidgin language: Latin and French imported words were superimposed on a Germanic substrate.) According to the Guinness book of records, English is the most irregular language in the world. It has over 250 irregular verbs (I mean, how do you get "were" out of "be"?). The rules connecting spelling and pronunciation are very strange, and over 15% of the words you encounter on the page (i.e. weighted for frequency) will be irregularly pronounced anyway. Classic example: the pronunciation of "ough" in "though", "through", "thought", "tough", "bough", "cough". I can't imagine how anyone ever learns it as a second language. Well, I've said my piece. From: steve (primus) 18/06/99 1:59:41 Subject: re: languages post id: 18482 English is not a pidgin. It is a Germanic language - compare German haus, Dutch huis, English house ( all pronounced much the same). French came in in 1066 with the Normans and English has adopted words from other languages quite freely since then.Two Australian examples are Emu from Portuguese and Kangaroo from Guugu Yimidhirr. While other languages try to restrict their adoption of words, English embraces neologisms. The reason English has spread worldwide, rather than any other language is because of the USA. Had France not sold Louisiana and the British not defeated the French in Quebec, French might be a bigger language than it is today. As it is, English has become the language of the world. In aviation, if you don't speak English, you can't fly a plane internationally as the language of all Air Traffic Controls is English(unless they are on strike in France where the military who take over ATC duties insist on French) From: Alan 18/06/99 18:43:54 Subject: re: languages post id: 18569 Daryn, you don't even have to go out of England to run into trouble with people understanding each other. One of my Uni lecturers used to live in the city of Leeds. He claimed that the variation in the dialect between N, S, E & W Leeds were so extreme that people from each area had trouble understanding people from the other areas. Craig, you are probably more of an expert on the chinese language than I am. However from what our Chinese born international sales rep (he speaks mandarin as his primary, cantonese 2nd, english 3rd, japanese 4th, korean 5th, he's quite useful) has informed me is that there is no difference between the chinese characters (maybe it's just their order?). This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages.