From: CLINT 19/02/2002 21:52:35
Subject: The Great Flood post id: 630178
Dear Forum

Could the increases in the sea level that occurred at the end of the last Ice Age have accounted for the Great Flood that has been described in many ancient religions. For example in the holy bible, in Krishna stories and the Greeks.

Could there be some truth in them that should not be discarded out of hand or do scientist just disregard them because they are stated in religious texts.

God Bless

From: TheDreamOf 19/02/2002 21:57:55
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630180
Yes, the sea levels were lower during the ice age - people could walk between Britain and France. But not enough water was released when the ice melted to "flood the world" - just make the oceans we see today.

> Could there be some truth in them

Scientists don't disregard them - they examine the background of the stories and look for natural flood (all of which are loca) which could account for the stories. The biblical flood, drawn from Gilgamesh, comes (it is thought) from the break of the Bosphorous.
From: Gaspode 19/02/2002 21:59:58
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630182
Clint scientists disregard the story of the great flood because the amount of water required doesn't exists on earth. Bringing it here in the quantities required in time to produce a flood rather than a gradual rise in sea levels would produce so much heat that the water would vapourise coating the planet in scalding steam. Getting rid of it would produce similar problems if we take the Biblical accounts literally. Then we have to explain that there is no extinction event asociated with the flood (and no, the ark doesn't explain that.)

Scientists quite happily admit to numerous localised floods in he Earths past, even the recent past, but a global flood that raised seas levels by the 10kms needed to match the biblical descripion simply cannot be scitnificallly explained, never mind the complete absence of evidence.


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html" target=new>Try this page.

WHen ou can answer the thermodynaics and extinction event puzzles posed there then we can talk scientific validity.
From: Gaspode 19/02/2002 22:00:42
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630184
Clint scientists disregard the story of the great flood because the amount of water required doesn't exists on earth. Bringing it here in the quantities required in time to produce a flood rather than a gradual rise in sea levels would produce so much heat that the water would vapourise coating the planet in scalding steam. Getting rid of it would produce similar problems if we take the Biblical accounts literally. Then we have to explain that there is no extinction event asociated with the flood (and no, the ark doesn't explain that.)

Scientists quite happily admit to numerous localised floods in he Earths past, even the recent past, but a global flood that raised seas levels by the 10kms needed to match the biblical descripion simply cannot be scientificallly explained, never mind the complete absence of evidence.


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html" target=new>Try this page.

When you can answer the thermodynaics and extinction event/species distribution puzzles posed there then we can talk scientific validity.
From: Methuselah 19/02/2002 22:02:26
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630185
yes it might be possible, although there is a significant gap between the last sea level rise and the earliest texts of the worlds great religions. However, the passing down of an oral history to the time when the written word appeared could mean the events described had taken place far earlier. It might also explain how the written accounts do not seem to bear any close relation to any clearly identifiable event. Try starting a rumour and then wait for it to return to you - the changes in the story can be startling.
Incidentally Rock Art in the Northern Territory Arnhem land, in an indirect way, depicts the rise in sea level by a change in the flora and faunas depicted in the art from freshwater to estuarine species.
From: aeiou 19/02/2002 22:05:23
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630188
HI, Clint.

The stories may indeed be based on real flood events. It is possible that there are a couple of them that are based on the same flood event. Some people have hypothesised that some of the flood tales of Europe and Western Asia stem from the diaspora that would have accompanied the flooding of the Black Sea about 10000 years ago.

However, as surely everyone knows, there is not enough water anywhere on earth to cause a global flood such as that described in genesis.
From: Gibbo ® 19/02/2002 22:13:18
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630192
I was told in ancient history once that the ancient Sumerians(?) had recorded a 'great' flood that inundated much of the fertile(?) crescent.

This could account for much, given the supposed location of the ark.

No opinions, just delving back into memories of high school history classes. Too bloody long ago to remember much clearly :)
From: Manfred ® 19/02/2002 22:23:02
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630196
May God bless you too, although I doubt if he's very pleased with you, because you are inferring things out of context. The biblical stories of the flood could not possibly have referred to a global flood, because "global" in the terms of the ancients who recorded events that are handed down to us in written form are events that ocurred in the then known world which is quite different to the world we know today.
The historical sea level rises ocurred very gradually, whereas sudden catastrophes like the sudden filling of the Black Sea which probably led to the Great Flood stories or the earlier filling of the Mediterranean which appeared way before the human era and appears to have happened more than once might explain so-called "world floods". You really should give the god that you believe in a bit more intelligence than your own. The evidence of the world is at your feet. All you have to do is learn to read it.
From: Indigo ® 19/02/2002 22:49:03
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630241
A quote from the talkorigins link for you, capital clint...
Davis Young, an Evangelical and geologist, wrote [Young, Davis, 1988. Christianity and the Age of the Earth. Artisan Sales, Thousand Oaks, CA, p. 163]:

"The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest. . . . Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel.

"Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God's truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done. . . ."

… Chris ☻

From: Manfred ® 19/02/2002 22:56:57
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630257
Harm has already been done, alas, but we live to learn.... gradually.
From: scinut 19/02/2002 23:13:16
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630302
>>Not enough water to cause a global flood

Just like people have always done. This is simply an argument from igonorance, as it is based on not knowing how water could have covered the whole earth.

For example, we all know that the sea is very deep. If the sea's floor were raised, and the continets lowered, there would be enough water to cover the grand majority of the planet, and tidal waves could take care of any mountains that were already there (or Noah's ark, for that matter :-) )
From: TheDreamOf 19/02/2002 23:14:52
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630309
> tidal waves could take care of any mountains

No they couldn't - no way enough energy - or do you want to invoke magic for that too ?
From: scinut 19/02/2002 23:18:29
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630318
Not reffering to actually destroying the mountains, just a good wave or to might swipe anyone who is on them off. (In particular, if the continents were lowered and the sea floor raised, so that the mountains would be lower)
From: TheDreamOf 19/02/2002 23:19:34
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630322
Surely any waves whipping about like that are going to smash an ark to matchsticks ?
From: Indigo ® 19/02/2002 23:21:34
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630328
Not according to the Bible, Scinut... the water covered the entire face of the Earth for a year according to the legend.

… Chris ☻

From: scinut 19/02/2002 23:22:12
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630331
Ain't that what I said?
From: Indigo ® 19/02/2002 23:24:18
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630337
No, you said:

Not reffering to actually destroying the mountains, just a good wave or to might swipe anyone who is on them off.

… Chris ☻

From: scinut 19/02/2002 23:28:13
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630347
...tidal waves could take care of any mountains that were already there (or Noah's ark, for that matter :-) ) scinut

Surely any waves whipping about like that are going to smash an ark to matchsticks ? TheDreamOf

Ain't that what I said? scinut

From: Indigo ® 19/02/2002 23:30:05
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630352
Sorry, misunderstandinged you, Scinut. :o)

… Chris ☻

From: theREALjean 19/02/2002 23:31:12
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630358

The biblical stories of the flood could not possibly have referred to a global flood, because "global" in the terms of the ancients who recorded events that are handed down to us in written form are events that ocurred in the then known world which is quite different to the world we know today.


i read somewhere that the hebrew word used in the bible for 'world' actually meant 'ground' or 'country' or something like that when translated properly. the person who wrote about the flood might have been using the word in the context of a local flood.
but then if the bible is supposed to be infallible, maybe we have to take the word for what it is =\
From: scinut 19/02/2002 23:32:46
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630362
Sorry, misunderstandinged you, Scinut. :o)

I really should have quoted better. My, I'm lazy today.

From: J.F. ® 19/02/2002 23:34:45
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630366
i read somewhere that the hebrew word used in the bible for 'world' actually meant 'ground' or 'country' or something like that when translated properly.

I think so, + posted about it recently. I hope I am not the "reference" you are thinking of, though!

The OT was very interested in thePromised Land. I doubt they thought much of far off places, or the whole planet.
From: theREALjean 19/02/2002 23:38:58
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630378

I think so, + posted about it recently. I hope I am not the "reference" you are thinking of, though!


nope J.F. i read that on an internet site somewhere, which is probably not the most reliable source so its good to have it cross-referenced =)
From: steve (Avatar) 20/02/2002 4:28:58
Subject: re: The Great Flood post id: 630605
but then if the bible is supposed to be infallible

Who says the Bible is infallible? The Bible does. Not very convincing, particularly when the Bible says that bats are birds.

Human settlements have always been close to water - on rivers or lakes, or on the coast near a source of fresh water. Every river floods at some time, some do it regularly, some do it catastrophically. Because every civilisation was affected by floods it is logical to assume that floods would play an important part in their stories and mythology.

The Black Sea flood was a one-off event that changed the known world for the people of the are. It is not surprising that stories of this flood passed down in oral history, enhanced along the way by retelling as all oral histories are.

While there is lots of evidence for local floods, there is none for a global flood and, in fact, a global flood 4500 years ago is impossible.
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