From: barney 3/02/00 23:53:51 Subject: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 34971 Recently ABC (or maybe SBS, I never know with a remote control!) ran a late night series on engineering relative to huge obelisks and the like. I only saw a bit and still wonder about the pyramids? How did they get the massive blocks to the top and how did they decide on the perfect angle to build? From: Woodie 3/02/00 23:59:59 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 34976 I think I saw a bit of one episode the other night. They were setting up what they thought to be how the Aztecs got all those rocks up in the Andes, and how they got the joints so perfect. Didn't see the episode with the pyramids. From: Woodie 4/02/00 0:02:02 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 34979 I also understand (according to some theories) that all the ancient civilization built all those things, without inventing the wheel to assist them. Any opinions on this theory? From: barney 4/02/00 0:05:45 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 34984 woodie, the thing that really freaks me out is that these ancient engineers seemed to grasp unbelievably complex concepts without the theory that we have and then be able to create them without the use of mechanical cranes and all the other 'compulsory' tools at our disposal. They either had a) great dedication, b)lots and lots of slaves c)help from alien races d) all the above From: barney 4/02/00 0:10:12 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 34990 re: not having the wheel - another point to ponder - this must have significantly lessened the mechanical advantage of pulley systems and the like. Lots and lots of slaves, I guess. From: Matt 4/02/00 0:14:36 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 34995 On a similar but unrelated topic - does anyone know of "cold lighting" by the Babylonians - something like our modern lighting from what I was told. From: Alan™ 4/02/00 0:21:17 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35000 They said during the pyramid show that slaves weren't used. Also that the flat sides were created after the pyramid had been fully built, ie they got to the top and then chipped the steps away. From: spud(adonai) 4/02/00 1:27:48 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35038 lan i belive, you are only partialy right, The Pyramids were coated with limestone, so they were white, and also perfectly smooth. The angle of the pyramids is the same as when you get a whole heap of sad and dump it in one spot. that creats a natural Pyramid, At an angle of about 43 degrees i think. There was an early pyramid, that failed because they built it on the wrong agle, but finished at the right angle. Alan i think the the theory of using slaves is still around, but I also think they may have used, camels or Donkeys to help pull the giant blocks. One theory i saw was they used, ramps, but then you find yourself using more labour and time to bulid the ramps etc... How they build them will probaby be a mystery, but a damn interesting one. I am sure the Egyptians had the wheel, so maybe cranes who knows? From: Greg Mc 4/02/00 2:09:57 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35041 Not slaves but religious devotees of the Pharaoh. The Nile used to flood for a few months every year and you had an enormous otherwise un-utilised agrarian workforce to throw their efforts at civic projects. The egytians used rollers and there are examples of them. This culture had millenia to perfect moving blocks about with sleds and rafts and ropes and greased poles and ramps without the need for spaceships or antigravity.They burried 40 meter long woden ships at the base of the pyramids and burried a fleet of seven ships at Abydos. If they had antigravity machines and spaceships don't you think they would have burried those instead! They did not become aware of the wheel for about 2 thousand years after the pyramids were finished. The wheel was introduced by invading armies but the egyptians copied and improved it to the form seen on Tutankhamun's chariot. The South americans had the wheel and made toys with them but with no beasts of burden and complex roads wheels aren't that much use. The Egyptians didn't have to carry the blocks that far, but it is still a good couple of hundred metres from the Nile.The blocks weigh up to around forty tonnes.There is evidence of ramps which spiralled up the face of the pyramids and the original quaries still exist. There is grafity from competing work gangs . There are some mysterious "air shafts" in Khufu discovered in the 20s as a result of mathematical deduction of repeating proportions in the pyramids geometry. Rudolf Gatenbrick sent a robot up one of the shafts off the Queens chamber and Zari Hawass, director of Antiquities is likely to give permission to open the mysterious door found at the end of the shaft. The pyramids were covered in white limestone polished to a mirror finish and the tops were capped in Gold. Over the years the limestone was stripped and much of it was incorporated into modern day Cairo just across the river. Chefren still has some of the original limestone capping near its peak. The Sphinx looks a bit tiny in real life but the pyramids are F!@#$%^&*ing awesome! Egypt rocks.The architechture everywhere is incredible. You must go once in your lifetime. For a million links go http://www.guardians.net/egypt/new.htm#new P.S. I'm off to the Pyramid ruins at Chichen Itza on the Yucatan peninsula Mexico next week... Wooo Hooo! From: Greg Mc 4/02/00 10:50:37 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35064 There is some controversy about the ramps and the time needed to build the things. Some have suggested encasing the blocks in curved timbers lashed together and rolling them. The reason things can be preserved so well in there is not Pyramid energy but because the desert is friggin dry and objects dryout and mummify. Not in the regularly visited chambers however which have required constant renovation due to hordes of sweaty tourists..... and fat German businessmen lounging about the pool, and forming pyramids and frightening the children, and if you're not at the table spot on seven you miss our bowl of Campbel's cream of mushroom soup, the first item on any menu of international cuisine and.... From: Chris (Avatar) 4/02/00 11:29:46 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35071 ... and every Thursday night the hotel has a bloody cabaret in the bar, featuring a tiny emaciated dago with nine-inch hips and some bloated fat tart with her hair brylcreemed down and a big arse presenting Flamenco for Foreigners. And adenoidal typists from Birmingham with flabby white legs and diarrhoea trying to pick up hairy bandy-legged wop waiters called Manuel and once a week there's an excursion to the local Roman Remains to buy cherryade and melted ice cream and... From: Chris (Avatar) 4/02/00 11:37:11 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35072 ...and bleeding Watney's Red Barrel and one evening you visit the so called typical restaurant with local colour and atmosphere and you sit next to a party from Rhyl who keep singing 'Torremolinos, torremolinos' and complaining about the food - 'It's so greasy isn't it?' - and you get cornered by some drunken greengrocer from Luton with an Instamatic camera and Dr. Scholl sandals and last Tuesday's Daily Express and he drones on and on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country and how many languages Enoch Powell can speak and then he throws up over the Cuba Libres. And sending tinted postcards of places they don't realise they haven't even visited to 'All at number 22, weather wonderful, our room is marked with an 'X'. Food very greasy but we've found a charming little local place hidden away in the back streets where they serve Watney's Red Barrel and cheese and onion crisps and the accordionist plays 'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner'.' And... From: Dr Paul (Avatar) 4/02/00 12:50:17 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35092 Hi all, can I have sources to say that the equipment that the "ancient" Egyptians did not count as wheel technology, please. If the Egyptians "rolled" the stones across the ground on long logs, what are the logs if not wheels? The technology for building the Pyramids and the Columns has been lost to the knowledge of "modern" Egyptians and the world. However, the level of lever technology inferred and the knowledge of the principles of wheel technology allows the program (on SBS) to infer the construction methods. An A-frame lever system with a set of log rollers and a ramp made of dried nile mud (a plentiful supply, every year) would enable the largest of blocks to be moved up the side of the developing pyramid. Then more simple levers could be used to "jemmy" the blocks into place. As for the cutting and finishing work, we can only wonder at the patience of the stone masons in getting the surfaces even, likely each block roughly polished for smooth fit. The shows are great shows, the formation and raising of a 400 tonne obelisk is a feat of engineering that would test the modern engineers. The Egyptians did it over and over again. Please do not consider the "ancient" civilsations not advanced, most of their knowledge has been lost (consider the sacking of the Great Library a disaster for the Human species). If we do not have their knowledge of technology, we can only infer what level of engineering capability that these people had (or not had). Paul, who still looks in wonder at the pyramids, the obelisks and says "how can we...?" From: James Richmond (Avatar) 4/02/00 17:03:51 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35142 The Egyptians did not use the wheel and axle as a practical labour-saving device. A rolling log is not a wheel, since the whole log is in contact with the ground. The pyramids were probably not built by slaves, but by loyal, god-fearing citizens. The angles of the pyramids were arrived at largely through trial and error. There is at least one pyramid whose angle changes part way up, since it would have collaped if continued with the same steepness. The angle of the Great Pyramid was chosen so that the height was equal to the radius of a circle with the same circumference as the pyramid base. It is possible that ramps were used to lift blocks up the pyramids, but I don't think this is the most likely explanation. It is more likely that a system of simple levers and wedges was used to lift each block bit by bit. There is no evidence of or need for alien help. Many possible methods by which the pyramids could have been constructed have been demonstrated. We still aren't sure exactly which ones were used, but the ancient Egyptians were at least as resourceful as we are and would have had no trouble solving their technical problems. JR From: Greg Mc 6/02/00 0:44:08 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35624 Indeed! I doubt we are any different in intelligence than people tens of thousands of years ago. The world is a challenging place. And perhaps living by your wits in a hostile environment tasks the human brain more far more rigorously than our cushy lifestyle. Compare: CroMagnon Karl:- "There are thousands of species of herbs and roots in this forest, most look similar and many are poisonous. only a few are edible with special preparation or accesable by careful digging but I must be wary of Wolves and Bears and parasitic worms in those areas" Bridge Toll collector:- "2 dollars Thank you" 2 dollars thank you, goodmorning 2 dollars thank you" etc I doubt most people you may meet in the street would have a better understanding of fairly common technology than my dog. Ask your postman how turning a key actually allows you to open a door.How does the simple mechanism work.? Dunno! Rexyboy answer:- Jingly noise, knobbything turn, door open, time to run in and drink from the toilet! Ask someone how a fridge works. RexyBoy knows it's cold in there but he doesn't know why any better than my mum does. Could this be a new thread "Technological marvels equally well understood by dogs and most people".? Chimps can ride motorcycles and drive go carts. Do they understand the technology any better than a Volvo driver does? By the Way, before I get to Yucatan I have to spend a week in Vegas staying inside the Luxor Pyramid Hotel/Casino. Now don't try to tell me THAT wasn't built by space aliens! From: Kothos 6/02/00 2:31:44 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35652 Was it Greg Mc who said the Sphinx looks kinda small? Apparently there is evidence that the head was recarved 2 or 3 times, and is considerably disproportionate in comparison to the body (it's way too small). Who knows what the original head was of, or which pahroah or pharoahs had the gall to reshape it, but it makes you wonder. What also makes one wonder is the incredible arrogance disguised as pragmatism of military leaders over the millennia. In the name of their idea of the promotion of human life and society, they have caused the greatest destructions of human works one could ever conceive. From: Greg Mc 6/02/00 2:53:53 Subject: re: pyramids and engineering miracles post id: 35653 Yeah, there's a bit of controversy about the recarving. A few of the Pharoahs were a tad egotistical one does deduce and RamsesII did a bit of recarving in his time. (His tomb looks about the size of a Westfield Shopping town underground Car park in comparrison to Tutankamun's tiny little two car garage). Zahi Hawass director of the Giza plateau has a good web site which deals with this and my earlier posted link should take you there. Even if it was recarved, the overall dimensions are limited by the surrounding pit (it was carved directly out of the rock of the plateau) the whole sphinx, whilst too big for my mantlepiece does look a bit small on the site in comparison. However, a bit of nice camera composition and the principle of perspective diminution does wonders for the photo album! The carving of detail on the headress looks very crisp but the whole body has been completely restored/rebuilt from blocks. This forum is un-moderated. The views and opinions expressed are those of the individual poster and not the ABC. The ABC reserves the right to remove offensive or inappropriate messages.