| From: Dane | 28/06/2001
11:52:01 |
| Subject: acupuncture | post id:
334541 |
| How does contemporary western
medicine account for the apparent success of eastern medical practices
such as moxibustion, acupunture and so forth?
| |
| From: DarrenK ® | 28/06/2001
12:00:57 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334561 |
| I wasn't aware that moxibustion
had ever been shown to work. Acupuncture appears to have a demonstrable effect on pain-related complaints (but not on the myriad of other complaints that it is commonly used for - at least so far). One theory for this relies on the spinal gate theory, which in basic terms involves the idea that pain messages can be crowded out of the spinal cord and therefore the consciousness by other signals. The acupuncture needle apparently produces such signals. Be careful about believing too much of the "proven success" of some of these techniques as many/most of them have not been rigorously tested. | |
| From: CJW ® | 28/06/2001
12:16:33 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334582 |
| Be careful about
believing too much of the "proven success" of some of these techniques as
many/most of them have not been rigorously tested. I'm also not struck on the new "placebo" testing needles which are a sheath with hides whether or not the needle is inserted. They say that this testing method only works on people who are acupuncture "virgins". People who have had acupunture know that some the sensations you experience during real acupuncture can be quite ugly. Some placebo!!! | |
| From: DarrenK ® | 28/06/2001
12:19:34 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334589 |
| Yes, CJW. True blinded testing is
very difficult in acupuncture and many of the other physical manipulation
techniques for just that reason. Studies need to be carefully designed to
work around this problem. | |
| From: Peter B | 28/06/2001
12:24:03 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334599 |
| Speaking as a Skeptic, my
understanding is that the apparent success of such processes is largely
anecdotal, and that they haven't been subjected to the same style or level
of testing as western medicine. If such testing was carried out, and the procedures were shown to work, then they should be fully embraced by the medical community. If such testing was carried out, and the procedures were shown to have no objective benefit, then they shouldn't be used as medical treatments. | |
| From: DarrenK ® | 28/06/2001
12:27:43 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334603 |
| Peter B, there have been a few
well-run studies done in recent years which provide enough evidence for us
to start taking acupuncture a little bit seriously. There has not been
enough evidence produced to be sure that the effect is real and
reproducible yet. At elast it seems clear that acupuncture is unlikely to
be directly harmful. We shall see what further studies show over the next
few years. | |
| From: Brendon | 28/06/2001
12:45:36 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334634 |
|
href="http://www.skepdic.com/acupunc.html Skeptic's Dictionary: Acupuncture | |
| From: Dane | 28/06/2001
12:52:36 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334642 |
| Forgive my ignorance, as I am by
no means a doctor, but the spinal crown that you refer to, how does it
relate to needles being applied in areas not in close proximity to the
spine? Is it simply a nervous connection between the area of application
and the spine? Also, do you know of any attempts to test the validity of
these so called medical practices? :) | |
| From: CJW ® | 28/06/2001
12:56:24 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334648 |
| I thought this was a particularly
interesting statement from the Skepdic: Thus, it seems that while China is moving forward in the scientific treatment of illness and disease, many in America and other parts of the world are moving backward, looking for metaphysical answers to their physical problems. J Spectre: Yes, I thought so too. | |
| From: Arno ® | 28/06/2001
13:39:44 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334681 |
| Just having a read of the
sceptics dictionary link, I find they really don't like to admit that
something might in fact work. Quotes along the lines of 'pain subsiding for a day or 2 and coming back.'(or words to that effect) Well, HELLO??!! What about any of our present pain relieving drugs that only relieve pain for a few hours at maximum???!! If we're talking of chronic pain, then a couple of days is bloomin' marvellous and far better than western medicine can offer. Acupuncture has been used for over a decade in mainstream medical treatment of pain. This also extends into acupressure and TENS machines as they are also thought to tap into the same 'gate theory' pathways. 8 years ago I was told of an acupressure point to relieve a sore throat. I was quite sceptical about alternative therapies then, and decided to put it to the "this won't work" test. A few hours later, to my amazement, I was pain free. Needless to say, I've not had a sore throat since. Arno | |
| From: Peter B | 28/06/2001
15:48:32 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334816 |
| Far be it from me to defend those
who won't change their minds! ;-) I'm perfectly happy to see "alternate" treatments included in the mainstream if they can be demonstrated objectively to work. I suppose my main concern is a sense of consistency: any number of practitioners presented with the same symptoms should, AFAIK, propose the same treatment. Arno, where's your sore throat pressure point? What process do you go through? How long does it take to take effect? | |
| From: pigman ® | 28/06/2001
16:09:17 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
334850 |
| I would have to be one of the
most sceptical people I know and so it was with acupuncture. However at
the stage I was at with my neck and shoulder trouble I was willing to give
anything a go to allow me more normal movement. I was treated with both laser acupuncture and then the original needle type (joys of student health services) and when they put needles in my ankle and between my index and middle finger in the webbing I thought hang-on. However, six months after treatment I have had no problems whatsoever. I cannot say it will work for everyone but it worked for me. | |
| From: Greg L. ® | 28/06/2001
21:10:57 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
335144 |
Alternating with what? Mainstream medicine. Unfortunately, some sectors of the 'alternative health' industry seem to be polluted with fraud and quackery-things like 'psychic surgery' come to mind. | |
| From: Peter B | 29/06/2001
13:29:36 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
335502 |
| I see there's an interesting
article in the Science News (see above right) about an extensive
acupuncture study reported in Britain. These are the sorts of studies
which need to be conducted. | |
| From: Arno ® | 29/06/2001
15:23:45 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
335602 |
| G'day Peter. Grab either thumb, nail up. Press with your other thumbnail on the skin where the right angles of your nail meet. Basically the corner of your thumb and nail. As you press hard(er) you'll feel a pinching of the nerve. It can be done on either thumb, on either side of your thumb. The aim of it is to stimulate the nerve that's in there - make it sore initially, then keep stimulating it for 5 minutes. I do both thumbs just to make sure. The sore throat goes within 1 - 2 hours. Your throat may still be red and inflamed but not sore. When I was in the UK I had a sore throat and chest. I fixed my sore throat but there was an absolute clear line of pain freeness from clavicle upwards. It was a truly bizarre feeling. I still haven't been able to find out where the sore chest pressure point is. Arno | |
| From: Peter B | 29/06/2001
16:20:30 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
335653 |
| Er, Arno, sorry to be a bit dumb,
but where is the point "where the right angles of your nail meet"? I'm
looking at my thumb, and I'm not seeing too many right angles, and none
that meet. Are you talking about either side of the base of the nail,
where it emerges from under the skin? I'll keep this in mind for the next sore throat. (Sigh...colds are a pain.) | |
| From: sarahs mum ® | 29/06/2001
16:31:53 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
335672 |
| mr grozzles's dad, a vet of the
old school...says he was skeptical of acupuncture until he had a point
shown to him, in a horses leg, that stemmed blood flow. he now uses it often..always having a needle in his kit and horses being horses. apparently acupuncture is well regarded in horse racing circles. mr grozzles has been having acupuncture for his achilles injury and he says it helps. | |
| From: Arno ® | 29/06/2001
16:32:12 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
335674 |
| Yes, that's the spot. It's hard
to explain a spot that's "just there, you know!" It's not quite the actual
part where your nail meets skin, but slightly back towards the crease in
your thumb. Arno | |
| From: Sarah's Uncle | 30/06/2001
20:16:37 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
336651 |
| Well!!!. After a long break from
the forum, Sarah's Mum and Mr Grozzle pointed out this thread to me. I'm
the one who's been sticking needles into Mr Grozzle. A four year degree in
the subject has to be useful eventually. As to there being few rigorous
studies into the science and medicine behind acupuncture and its
associated therapies... has anyone actually looked up the huge quantity
listed in Medline. The Gate Theory is almost passe these days. What about
endorphins, beta-enkaphlins? What about the studies showing 5HT
(seratonin) and cortisone release to name a few? Look up past Brain
Research copies in your local hospital medical library. As to finding
objective subjects for research, we call them acupuncture virgins, people
who have never had acupuncture and have been interviewed and vetted for
their expectations, randomised etc. I was a skeptic 20 years ago,
positively fearful of needles in any form until having several problems
banished. Mind you, the preceding chemistry degree and pharmaceutical
research positions I have held would make anyone skeptical. Look at drug
research studies and see the proportion of subjects that actually respond,
for a drug to be effective it only has to be statistically better than a
placebo(30%). So if it is effective in 50% of subjects given the drug,
we're on a winner. Does aspirin work on all people? paracetamol? Hell no.
Why would one in seven doctors in Australia attend acupuncture courses if
they thought it was ineffective? | |
| From: DarrenK ® | 03/07/2001
11:32:36 |
| Subject: re: acupuncture | post id:
338368 |
| Hi Sarah's Uncle, Thanks for your input. You do know that endorphins and 5-HT receptors are part of current gate theory, don't you? I have actually searched Medline as well as the general internet out of my own professional interest, and have unfortunately found that many of the studies used flawed methodology or showed very minimal results. Having said that, there are enough well-conducted studies that showed significant enough results for the practise to warrant additional research. It certainly appears that acupuncture has a valid role, but more research is required before we can objectively say that it does and in which situations it should be used. Beyond that, we still need to work out precisely how it works. A large number of doctors (primarily GP's, I understand) do look into acupuncture because they can see that it is at least a safe technique, with possible good effects. For people who are not responding well to mainstream treatments, such an option seems to be worth trying. The other side of the equation are the clear quacks who claim all manner of cures from acupuncture which clearly have not been established. I suspect that such practitioners give acupuncture a bad name and hinder progress by trying to shroud the practice in mystery instead of seeking to understand how it really works. Once again, thanks for your input, DarrenK | |