| From: SillyOldBugger | 24/07/00
11:52:03 |
| Subject: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103878 |
| I was reading an earlier topic
about who built the pyramids. I once read somewhere where someone
calculated how long it would take quarry, cut, finish and transport the
millions of blocks of stone which make up the pyramids. He then calculated
how many people would be required to carry out such a task. I dont remember the exact result but it was in the area of decades at least. Thats amazing enough in it self, but now lets consider the infrastucture required to feed, cloth and house these many tens of thousands of workers in that part of the world for that sustained period of time. Consider also the rest of the population that must have also been around at that time doing other things. Consider also that if it is a tomb, the great Pyramid must have been conceived and started by one king (who sustained this huge endeavour over his entire life at great cost to his kingdom) when he must have know that it would not be nearly completed in his life time. He was building a tomb and monument for his successor? All sounds unlikely to me. Would anyone care to address any of these observations? | |
| From: Joseph | 24/07/00
12:06:24 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103890 |
| Cultural relativity again! Its so
difficult to judge the standards of thousands of years ago with those of
today. What a strange and horrible existence for those slaves. If a society is so heavily weighted towards the monarch (pharoah) and so concerned with eternal life (at least for the pharoahs), strange things happen. The power of the whip combined with wishful thinking in the worst possible way. | |
| From: SillyOldBugger | 24/07/00
12:10:32 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103894 |
| 2 other things I find
interesting. The apparent much greater age of the Sphinx which is located only a few hundred meters from the Pyramids and quarried from the same stone, shows weathering consistent with an age several thousands of years older than the pyramids. And yet the ancient Egyptians are generally accepted as the oldest human civilisation. Also I have watched some interesteing attempts bypresent day experts in construction, engineering and transportation to move a block of stone similar in size to those used in the construction of the pyramids, using only ancient tools and methods. It was very amusing. I thought O.K. that took you x number of days to move that rock 200 meters using 600 people. Now lets multiply that by a couple of million stones to be quarried and transported many, many kilometers and then raised to sit on top of the pyramid. Hmmm. I still think it unlikely. We are missing a piece or 2! | |
| From: James R (Avatar) | 24/07/00
12:16:20 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103896 |
| Egyptologists who have studied
the construction of the pyramids in detail say that the Pyramid of Khufu
(the Great Pyramid) was probably built in around 2550 BC in a period of
20-40 years with a labour force numbering around 20-30,000. Some of these
workers most likely worked all year round and stayed at Giza. Others
worked part time, during the annual flooding of the fields by the Nile.
Farmers and local villagers would put in time on the pyramids as homage to
their God/King and to help ensure their own place in the
afterlife. JR | |
| From: James R (Avatar) | 24/07/00
12:18:30 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103898 |
| Joseph, The pyramids were most likely not built by slaves, but by loyal Egyptian citizens. JR | |
| From: Carmel ® | 24/07/00
12:24:07 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103900 |
| You realise, in centuries to come
people will lok back at our time and say "how did they ever do that? It
just doesn't make sense... I don't beleive
it" | |
| From: SillyOldBugger | 24/07/00
12:32:28 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103905 |
| You say they were built by 20000
to 30000 loyal citizens many working the year around. Who was doing the
farming? Who was doing all the thpousands of other things necessary to
sustain a complex civilization as this for DECADES for the glory of the
king. The supposition that they put their livesto this task for
generations for glory in the afterlife seems like a big guess to
me. And consider the motivation of the rulers who ordered this. Imagine A Bob Hawke Government starting to build a multi billion dollar project which will take 30 years of sustained effort of the part of our entire economy, and this effort being continued by successive governments for decades....all with the ultimate aim of building a memorial to John Howard. It doesn't add up. Now or then. | |
| From: Carmel ® | 24/07/00
12:37:25 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103907 |
| Don't be mislead, the mindset of
these people was surely very different to our own. Their culture, their
beliefs and their practises would all contribute to this
state-of-affairs... Don't fall into the trap of project 21century logic
onto ancient civilisations. | |
| From: Paul H. | 24/07/00
12:41:41 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103909 |
| Anyone interested in this sort of
thing should be watching SBS's Sunday night program called "Secrets of the
Ancients" (I think). It's a series of very genuine practical attempts to
recreate what at first glance appears to be unlikely ancient
accomplishments. Highly recommended. It was a program like this that convinced me that building the pyramids isn't quite as big a deal as we think. Our ancestors were a lot smarter than we think they were. | |
| From: SillyOldBugger | 24/07/00
12:42:01 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103910 |
| My arguement about this issue is
twofold. 1. Logistics 2. Motivation Forget what the Egyptoligist may say. Examine the 2 issues, especially the logistics. Think aboout it. It takes hundreds of mento transport one moderate size block of stone perhaps up to 100 kilometers across all types of ground....millions of times. If they went by water, that raises a whole lot of other problems. I think it unsound to dismiss the issue without explaining how this could have been done. The high priests of Egyptology do not have the answers | |
| From: Carmel ® | 24/07/00
12:45:24 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103912 |
| The programme that Paul H refered
to is excellent... Can't recall it's name either, but it demonstrated to me how remarkably easy it would have been to send huge lumps of rock up and down the nile and then dump them in place. You must credit these people with the intelligence and ingenuity they deserve! MAy I ask how YOU propose the things got to be where they are now? | |
| From: SillyOldBugger | 24/07/00
12:52:42 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103916 |
| I try to avoid guessing what the
ancient "mind set " was. Who knows? Not me..not you either Carmel. It's a
pat answer..like "they were clever then"...or "They have forgoten more
than we know" or..."they were smarter than we think" (which appears self
contradicory to me). Let's stick to what we actually know. We know for example (from attempts carried out by experts on the show mention previously "Secrets of the Ancients" that it takes hundreds of men to move a block of stone weighing a few tons. Now multiply the number of stones x time from quarry to pyramid (many kilometers I believe). Now factor in the labour force required to quarry, and build it add the infrastructure to support these otherwise unproductive hordes. Throw in the military, and factor in natural disaters. My calculator must be stuffed. The answer is unbelievable. Taking about their "minset" wont fix my calculator. | |
| From: James R (Avatar) | 24/07/00
12:52:56 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103917 |
| You say
they were built by 20000 to 30000 loyal citizens many working the year
around. Who was doing the farming? Who was doing all the thpousands of
other things necessary to sustain a complex civilization as this for
DECADES for the glory of the king. Obviously, while the Nile was flooded farmers would have some spare time on their hands. As for the permanent workers - obviously other people were doing the farming. People didn't only work on the pyramids. The supposition that they put their livesto this task for generations for glory in the afterlife seems like a big guess to me. Not generations. Many people would have been around to see the task completed, or at least well on the way to completion in their own lifetimes. And consider the motivation of the rulers who ordered this. Imagine A Bob Hawke Government starting to build a multi billion dollar project which will take 30 years of sustained effort of the part of our entire economy, and this effort being continued by successive governments for decades....all with the ultimate aim of building a memorial to John Howard. There is a big difference between this example and the ancient Egyptians. We don't consider John Howard or Bob Hawke to be incarnations of God; the Pharoah was considered a God. And the workers on the pyramids built the pyramids at least partly for religious reasons. The old gods held much more sway over the people than gods do these days. JR | |
| From: Jazz ® | 24/07/00
12:59:47 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103923 |
| Was it "Passions of the Past" or
something...? Not wanting to buy into this one but unable to help myself... re the John Howard reference: the Pharoahs were considered 'gods', 'immortal', 'in touch with the gods' and 'guaranteed a trip to the afterlife' (depending on which texts you read). Our little Johnny is hardly a deity, and so doesn't command anywhere near the reverence the pharoahs did. The 'slaves' lived in purpose-built villages at the pyramid sites, were given food and beer, and were generally thought to be in good spirits as they strongly believed in their cause and were hopeful that their part in it would guarantee them, also, a trip to the afterlife (yes, another star system, in the constellation of Orion...:o)) The ancient Egyptians were as intelligent as you and me. | |
| From: James R (Avatar) | 24/07/00
13:03:48 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103926 |
| Let's
stick to what we actually know. We know for example (from attempts carried
out by experts on the show mention previously "Secrets of the Ancients"
that it takes hundreds of men to move a block of stone weighing a few
tons. Wrong! In actually tests, it has been found that 12 men can quite easily move a 1.5 tonne block of stone over a slick surface. Engineers from various construction firms have estimated that 4 to 5000 workers could deliver the required building materials to the site of the Great Pyramid in the required 20-40 year period. JR | |
| From: Paul H. | 24/07/00
13:10:36 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103932 |
| ..."they were
smarter than we think" (which appears self contradicory to me).
Not to me. Before I learned how to tie my shoelaces, it looked impossible. We know for example (from attempts carried out by experts on the show mention previously "Secrets of the Ancients" that it takes hundreds of men to move a block of stone weighing a few tons. On the contrary. I gave the example because I saw ten men move a block of stone weighing a few tons. | |
| From: SillyOldBugger | 24/07/00
13:13:47 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103935 |
| Someone asked me who I think
built the pyramids. I believe the pyramids were built by people. I have little reason, based on present evidence, that they could have built them with the technology we attribute to their time. What technology? No idea. But I don't claim to have the answers. Only the questions. I don't believe anyone else has the answers either. But a lot of people put their belief in the Egyptologist who have no evidence to support their view. Several years ago, a small room was detected (using sonar or whatever) 5 meters down and just to the side of the Sphynx. Now, it is widely, if not universally accepted that the Sphynx is much, much older than the Pyramids. This room could clearly contain clues to who built it and when. But to my knowledge this room has not been entered. Why not? Too many unknowns for me to sit up and confidently crow "The Egyptians built the Pyramids using ropes and Logs" | |
| From: Richard | 24/07/00
13:15:37 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103937 |
| There was a show on abc (Melb)
last night about a group of about 20 poms trying to prove that the romans
could build a bridge over the Rhin river. in 10 days they reinvented some of the tecnology and actualy built a crane from timber capable of lifting over 1 ton and a floating timber pile driver and then partialy constructed a bridge. so i am sure if 20 poms could do that many thousands of of enslaved religious zelots in egypt could have buit the pyramids | |
| From: SillyOldBugger | 24/07/00
13:17:42 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103939 |
| Many of the stones weigh tens of
tons and they had no "slick surfaces" They moved them great distances over
sand other rough and difficult ground. Then they raised them to the top.
Find me an engineer today that can raise a 40 ton stone 15' using ancient
technology. I defy you:) | |
| From: Richard | 24/07/00
13:20:41 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103940 |
| why a 40 ton stone
15' | |
| From: Kothos ® | 24/07/00
13:21:38 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103941 |
If your "ancient technology" includes people, my bet would be on that it can be done (-: | |
| From: Jazz ® | 24/07/00
13:26:39 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103943 |
| I saw a show on SBS (French
production) which showed stonemasons in Egypt recreating the raising of
the 60 ton blocks to the next 'step' of the pyramid. They had a lump of wood, curved (um...convex?), like the bottom of a rocking chair (sorry, my vocabulary has deserted me today) and flat on the top. After getting the stone on top of this they would rock it from side to side. Each time they rocked it to one side, they'd jam a bit of wood under the side that was off the ground. They kept doing this until they had lifted the stone up to the next level. Obviously it was dangerous and heavy work, but they did it. These modern-day stonemasons, who use similar techniques to the ancients, found nothing unexplainable about how the pyramids were built. | |
| From: Kothos ® | 24/07/00
13:26:40 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103944 |
Firstly even if we agree we don't know quite how the pyramids were built, we know that it was possible - they are there. Just because we are unaware of the exact process, does not mean that the exact process was beyond the capabilities of an ancent civilisation of several millions of people. The process could have been (and likely was) very simple and practical - this is not precluded by the fact that modern people haven't figured it out. Secondly, I wouldn't underestimate the motivation of groups of people who, compared to us, were both very ignorant and very devout. Entire countries of people these days still manage to get sucked in to having a crappy way of life for decades and decades, just because they are taught this is the way it ought to be. I would imagine people in ancient civilisations were very religious and often very simple. Egypt is not the oldest civilisation as far as I know. The Sphinx is definately older than the pyramids, and shows signs consistent with having been recarved as well. Yes, who built it is a bit of a mystery, and conjecturing about the possibilities is fun - but I wouldn't draw any definite conclusions from any indefinite conjectures. | |
| From: Jazz ® | 24/07/00
13:48:18 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103953 |
| The Sphinx is an interesting one.
I'm more curious about who built it and why, than I am about the pyramids.
I read some guy's theory that it could actually be a dog, not a lion...and
I also read that it could have been there as far back as 7,000 BC (and as
much as 15,000 BC), but then I do read a lot of weird
stuff... | |
| From: DV (Avatar) | 24/07/00
14:04:02 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103962 |
| Viewed from without, not taking
into consideration the world culture, how "unlikely" would it sound that
the United States of America would spend six trillion dollars over a
number of decades, building up a nuclear weapons system that it will
probably never use? I haven't read any estimates of the total expenditure
by other countries, but you'd have to guess that the world as a whole had
spent at least ten trillion US dollars worth on this. Knowing the details of the world we live in, it makes sense (sort of). Without those details, it seems unbelievable. The only explanation for their presence is that aliens planted them here so that we'd have the means to wipe each other out, so that they would inherit the planet without getting blood on their own hands... | |
| From: Jazz ® | 24/07/00
14:18:49 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103974 |
| If there really is a tomb or
something underneath surely it would be investigated? Nothing else is
sacred after all... BTW the Hall of Records is on Mars. And the Mars surveyor thingies that 'crashed' found the Mars pyramids and the truth is too shocking for us to handle...yet... :o) | |
| From: James R (Avatar) | 24/07/00
14:28:24 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
103979 |
| If the pyramids were not built
using known ancient technology and methods, where is the evidence that
they were built using other technology and/or methods? I don't believe anyone else has the answers either. But a lot of people put their belief in the Egyptologist who have no evidence to support their view. What do you think Egyptologists spend their time doing? They collect evidence and form hypotheses about how things were probably done. Several years ago, a small room was detected (using sonar or whatever) 5 meters down and just to the side of the Sphynx. Now, it is widely, if not universally accepted that the Sphynx is much, much older than the Pyramids. This room could clearly contain clues to who built it and when. This is interesting. There is no absolute consensus on the age of the Sphinx at present. The conventional view is that it was built by Khafre, but there is some evidence which suggests it might be several thousand years older. Does anyone have any solid information on excavations under the Sphinx? There are three tunnels which appear to lead under the Sphinx, but as far as I know none has been fully excavated. JR | |
| From: recher | 24/07/00
15:01:16 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
104016 |
| What remains the eseential
mystery of the Great Pyramids is that they were built at the dawn of
civilization. They built the nbiggest and best first from nowhere. To me
this is circumstantial evidence of prior advanced civilization. The sphinx--did anyone see the docu on SBS where umpteen geologists state the weathering on the sphinx is water not wind and sand erosion? Why this fact is critical is if water erosion then that dates the sphinx to 9000-12000 BC when due to the Earth's tilt ona 25,000 year cycle for 3000 years the tilt favours increased South Atlantic water temperature by 1 degree resulting in RELIABLE MONSOONAL RAINS acroos the entire Saharan region. This means the sphinx is the first confirmed relic of a previos civilized age. If such existed then it literally 'weathered on the vine' as increasing dryness contracted civilization to the secure arable areas i.e. the Nile and the mediterranean Coast(Carthage). If the sphiunx is the first such relic then surely there are more. I'm open on this one but it is suggestive esp. when Homer and Plato(?) talk of Atlantis =maybe not buried beneath the ocean but beneath the sand. But the real mind blowing docu of my life was theSBS scientifically documented (publishe dpapers) that revealed a mummy circa 1500Bc egyptian had trace saof cocaine in her hair.Cocaine being endemic to South AMerica. | |
| From: Greg Mc ® | 24/07/00
15:46:47 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
104056 |
| The claim that the sphinx is
vastly older than the pyramids and built by a previous ancient
civilisation is based on the psychic revelations of the late Edmond Cayse
and his disciples. These claims were further popularized by new-age sci-fi
writers Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval et-al. Graham Hancock claims that the sphinx was carved in the age of Leo just after the last iceage by the folk from Atlantis which was located on presentday Antarctica. Edmond Cayse in his psychic dreams saw a vision of a wonderful hall of records burried beneath the paws of the sphinx which contained all the secrets of the ancients, including knowledge of the human civilisation in the constallation of sirius in the belt of orion. The weathering of the sphinx is claimed to show extreme age because is claimed to be caused by heavy rainfall . According to "ancient sphinx" enthusiasts, Giza has not had heavy rainfall for over 6 thousand years and it must have undergone this extreme weathering thousands of years before the pyramids were built. This claim is garbage but when read in an entertainingly written book, supported by psedo-science and outrageous claims that the whole of the earths crust can slip around like Alfoil on a billiard ball to suddenly freeze Atlantis/Antarctica over, it all seems to make perfect sense. The stone of the sphinx varies greatly in quality, even though it is one piece and the body section weathers much more rapidly than the head. The head-dress is nearly pristine although the body detail is unrecognisable. The weathering recorded since the time of Napoleon when it was largely covered in sand has been ample to account for weathering in the millenia prior to its sand covering. Cairo regularly receives heavy rain downpours and rain has often interrupted modern archeological digs. Yes, there are lots of tombs and chambers within the Giza plateau, such as the osirus shaft in the proximity of the sphinx. The are unknown contents to be discovered hopefully in the "airshafts" of the Queen's chamber of Khufu. The extent of the inclined ramps used to build the pyramids have been mapped in Archaeological digs. The camps used to house the workers have been found and are being excavated as we read and breathe. The pyramids are in short walking distance from the Nile. The Egyptians used to transport thousands of tons of grains and produce on barges hundreds of kilometers up and down the nile but the minute anyone suggests transporting a stone block or two then suddenly levitation and lost powers and UFOs must be involved!! However if you want to believe in conspiracies, go ahead and have fun. Just remember, the Archaeologists aren't trying to sell exciting "Fingerprints of the Gods" type books or Nexus magazines, they have real work to do. http://guardians.net/hawass/ | |
| From: Dusty ® | 24/07/00
15:57:44 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
104067 |
| This is a fascinating topic. I've
enjoyed thinking up methods for constructing the pyramids since I was a
kid. I've seen many possiblities suggested over the years and many of them
discarded as unworkable. As far as I know, the Great Pyramid is not the first of the Giza pyrmids built. So they had an opportunity to refine their construction techniques before attempting their big feat. There seems to be quite a munber of people who love to say that they could not possibly have been built by the people of the time, that it is a logistical impossibility. Which is clearly ridiculous, since there they are. How foolish do you look to claim that something is impossible, only to have it accomplished subsequently? How much more foolish to you look to claim something that has already been accomplished is impossible? I doubt anyone every claimed that the construction was easy, but that doesn't make it impossible. The Egyptians had an advanced civilization and an effective government and beaurocracy. Think instead about the Mayan civilization, who achieved similar feats in much less forgiving terrain without even any written recordkeeping. Dusty | |
| From: Greg Mc ® | 24/07/00
16:18:50 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
104088 |
| Recher, sorry, if my post seemed
confrontational. Unfortnately alot of these claims that the Egyptians could not have done this or that come up exceedingly frequently and completely ignore all the hard evidence that exists and replace it with invented drivel presented in a very convincing manner by bogus publicity seekers. http://guardians.net/hawass/remnants.htm weathering Jazz, yes, the Mayans kept extensive records and books and most were destroyed. The Serpent was a major figure in Mayan mythology as was the jaguar and the Catholic spaniards were keen on wiping out such blasphemous evil. Some was translated and copied however and fortunately many spaniards kept extensive notes on customs and rituals. The Spaniards tended to knock down Mayan and Aztec temples and build Churches in their place. Some records have been found recently hidden in caves on the Mexican coast. Most of the walls of Mayan civic and religious buildings are heavily carved with symbolic imagery. I was recently at Tulum and Chichen Itza on the Yucatan peninsula and the surfaces of the structures were covered in detailed hieroglyphics. Originally this was brightly painted and details their cosmology and legends. | |
| From: Dusty ® | 24/07/00
16:24:30 |
| Subject: re: The Great Pyramids | post id:
104096 |
| Greg: There's a big difference
between painting and general recordkeeping, though, its like comparing
Homer to a general ledger. But as I said, it appears my info is a little
out of date, so I'll be back on this topic after a net search or five.
:) Dusty | |